Presenting the Gospel

[JM]

I've been visiting St. Justin's Eastern Orthodox debate forum the last few days and haven't had much luck discussing their theology. For example, I posted the portion below presenting the Gospel and all I've heard back was that I was misquoting scripture and a heretic. You can read their comments here: The Gospel

Keep in mind I have already had a few discussions on different topics so this was just the last topic I tried to bring up.
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Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

We have many ideas about what a person has to do to get to heaven. Some believe we must follow the “Golden Rule,” and do good deeds which will eventually outweigh the bad we have done, tipping the scales in our favour….after all, we are all basically good people…right?

If we assume we are good people we are also assuming a standard for what we consider good. Since we assume there is an absolute standard for what is good there must be an absolute standard giver. The Bible repeatedly states that God has given mankind a holy, universal Law, that is written on our hearts and our conscience bears witness to this Law. This Law is revealed and summarized in the Ten Commandments. When we look at God’s Law, we must understand that we have all sinned in some way or another; remember, you don’t have to break all Ten to be guilty of breaking the Law. The Bible warns,

“For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it.”

“… it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment” Hebrews 9:27

Let’s look at a few of the Commandments and see how we fare:

“You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain.” Have you ever taken God’s name in vain? If you have, you are a blasphemer and can not enter the Kingdom of God.

“Honour your father and mother.” Have you always honoured your parents in a respectful manner? In a way that God would consider honouring?

“You shall not steal.” Have you ever taken something that didn’t belong to you (irrespective of its value)? What do you call someone who takes something that doesn’t belong to them? A thief – You cannot enter God’s Kingdom.

“You shall not bear false witness.” Have you ever told a lie? Just one? What do you call someone who told a lie? A liar. The Bible warns that all liars will have their part in the Lake of Fire.

You and I are guilty of sinning against God by breaking His Law, and because we have a conscience, we have sinned “with knowledge.” Isn’t it true that when you steal, lie, etc. you know that it’s wrong? Does the fact that you have sinned against God bother you? The punishment for breaking God’s Law is Hell. Eternal Death.

“Almost every natural man that hears of hell, flatters himself that he shall escape it; he depends upon himself for his own security; he flatters himself in what he has done, in what he is now doing, or what he intends to do. Every one lays out matters in his own mind how he shall avoid damnation, and flatters himself that he contrives well for himself, and that his schemes will not fail.[1]”

WHAT MUST YOU DO TO BE SAVED FROM THE PENALTY OF BREAKING GOD’S LAW?

There is good news, there is a GOSPEL. God the Father has given us a mediator in Jesus Christ who is the incarnation of God. Jesus took upon Himself man’s nature, becoming subject to the Law of God, and perfectly obeying the Law in thought and deed for His entire lifetime on earth. While on earth Christ took the sins of His people upon Himself, and suffering the punishment due to all their sins paid the penalty by dying on the Cross, “…for the wages of sin is death.”

By dying in place of His people Jesus Christ became the mediator between God and man and revived in His people the righteousness, holiness and true knowledge lost as a consequence of sin.

As we find ourselves before a holy God we are convicted for breaking His righteous Law. The Holy Spirit moves in the soul to bring us to acknowledge our guilt and brokenness before God and His righteousness. We come to hate sin and find Jesus Christ precious. The Holy Spirit convinces the broken sinner of the shamefulness of sin and then brings the offender to a place where they can, “repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord.”

If you feel the weight of sin on your heart and have come to see the blackness of your soul in the light of God’s Law…if you have been brought to a place where you dread the judgement of the trice holy God, BELIEVE THE GOSPEL! If you believe that Jesus Christ paid the penalty for your sins the Bible assures us that, “whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.”

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[1] quote taken from a sermon by Jonathan Edwards titled, “Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God.”

 

[abacabb3]

Aren't you ex-Eastern Orthodox? In my limited conversations with them they come off as extremely arrogant (presuming if you don't understand a Greek philosophical category you are a heretic) and inconsistent (the Scripture is Holy Tradition, but the writings of the Fathers that also are "Holy Tradition" are highly contradictory and not agreed upon.)

I think what you are getting at is to let them know they don't know the Gospel (the fact that anyone quotes James like that proves that point.) I prefer to let them speak for themselves and then show them where they fall short. Now, they are just ignoring you.

 

[abacabb3]

You and I are guilty of sinning against God by breaking His Law, and because we have a conscience, we have sinned “with knowledge.”

Great point. SPeaking with JWs, this is something that comes up (because they believe unreached people can be converted after they die. They don't realize that we have own violated our own consciences and thereby are all are disobedient.

 

[JM]

I attend an Eastern Orthodox church about 12 years ago but my "Calvinist" and therefore Gospel presuppositions lead me out.

If I came off sounding harsh or unloving when speaking to them I really didn't mean to. I'll keep working on it.

Yours in the Lord,

jm

 

[abacabb3]

You came out fine. They are all very arrogant. Definitely the most arrogant denomination I have ever dealt with. They are like Catholics, but without he proselytism because if you are not one of them, you are stupid and shouldn't be anyway! I am reaching the point where I do not think it is coincidence. It is clearly something Satanic.

That aside, you were very courteous, but I think that when dealing with people that pretend to know the Gospel, it is best to let them present it, see where they botch it, and then correct them.

I had JWs over Friday and they wanted to talk Christology, so I went all Todd Friel on them and said, "Before we talk about that, this question has been itching me, if I literally had three minutes to live and I wanted to know what I must do to be saved, what would you say?"

They said that three minutes is not enough time to be saved.

I asked then if we are saved by works.

They started back tracking and said that faith must come with works.

So I responded, what works other than genuine faith did the thief on the cross have.

[Warning, for the following to make sense you need to understand JW's warped view of eschatology.] They responded that he would be resurrected to the 1,000 year millenial reign of Christ and would have the opportunity to prove out his faith.

I asked then whether people in the millenial kingdom are saved by faith or works.

They were confused at this point and speculated that those in the millenial kingdom cannot sin, other than those that join Satan in rebellion at the end of it.

So, I responded that if we are saved by faith in this life, and then in the millenial kingdom cannot sin, aren't we saved by default as a result of a faith, no matter how short lived?

They responded that maybe people can sin in the millenial kingdom.

So I asked, if they do sin, how do they get forgiveness, God's standards have not changed.

They told me they would have to find out whether we can sin or not in the millenial kingdom.

 

[abacabb3]

I have since followed up with the JWs with the following:

I think it is important that where I stand concerning my own salvation is made clear to you, because it informs my thinking.

All men, including you and I, are under condemnation:

Indeed, there is not a righteous man on earth who continually does good and who never sins (Ecc 7:20).

There is no one righteous, not one (Rom 3:10).

What are God's standards? Perfect obedience to the Law:

“Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them” (Gal 3:10).

How about those without the Law? " For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law" (Rom 2:12).

Is there any without the Law who have never sinned? Ecc 7:20 explicitly says this is not true: "there is not a righteous man on earth who continually does good and who never sins."

Further, on that subject the Scripture states, "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" (Rom 3:23). There are no exceptions, everyone is in need of grace. "For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all" (Rom 11:32).

Even the good we do is tainted by our sin. Do any of us have pure motives, without pride or selfishness one hundred perfect of the time?

[A]ll our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment; And all of us wither like a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, take us away (Is 64:6).

Because of this we fall dreadfully short of God's expectations for us:

You shall be blameless before the Lord your God (Deut 18:13).

The Scripture is explicit that we are saved by faith and not by works.

For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law (Rom 3:28).

[A] man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified (Gal 2:16).

This is not in reference of the Jewish Law only, but all righteous works:

For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness (Rom 4:2-5)

Abraham was not under the Law, it was given over 400 years later. As Paul makes clear, "What I am saying is this: the Law, which came four hundred and thirty years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise" (Gal 3:17).

What is that promise? That by faith, and not works, God "justifies the ungodly."

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast (Eph 2:8-9).

[God] saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity (2 Tim 1:9).

Note that in all of the above "saved" is in the past tense. When faith is "credited" to Abraham as righteousness, Abraham had by faith already become righteous. He did not need to keep working to maintain that righteousness. That "saved" state was a past event. This is indisputably clear in the language.

It is important to note that the only reference to works is that they are coupled with faith, but it never ever says that works justifies:

You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected (James 2:22).

For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love (Gal 5:6).

So, works are coupled with a non-made up, real faith from the heart. Even the thief on the cross, not able to do that much, did the good work of exalting Jesus Christ and repenting of his sins. This good work would be consistent with his faith.

Why is all of this so important? Because if I am judged according to my works, which the Scripture clearly says, if I am not found "hidden in Christ with God" (Col 3:2) then I am in trouble. God demands absolute perfection, because He is absolutely perfect. If all my wicked works have not been canceled out on the cross/torture stake, then I am judged according to these works of wickedness and God will condemn me.

This is true of any of you. If you think works are needed in addition to faith, the question is how many hours of good works a day are good enough? 3? 5? 20? The Scripture says, "This how we know what love is, that Christ laid down His life for us, so we ought to lay down out lives for one another" (1 John 3:16). God's expectations are clear. We are to completely die onto ourselves. That means no fun, nothing for ourselves, everything is sacrificed for the sake of God.

Do any of us come remotely close to meeting that standard? Please seriously think and pray about this.

 

[gord44]

edit.

 

[GQ Chris]

How do they believe that they are saved? The sacraments?

 

[JM]

How do they believe that they are saved? The sacraments?

Check out the thread.

They are very cagy about how one is saved other than to say you must attend to the sacraments without ever knowing if Christ died for them. I think we, as Reformed Christians, would say we are saved by Christ alone through faith AND therefore attend to the sacraments/ordinances out of faith for what Christ has done...BUT our works (even those done by faith) do not affect our salvation.

I hope that makes sense.

Yours in the Lord,

jm

 

[GQ Chris]

Check out the thread.

Yeah I was reading through the thread and they were not answering very clearly. Also thought they came off as arrogant Pharisees.

 

[JM]

I'm trying to get a discussion going but it has been difficult.

 

[gord44]

I remembered when I spoke to a Catholic priest recently and asked about salvation and his response was not much different then something a Baptist preacher would say.

 

[abacabb3]

Well, from what I can tell, what EO (and RCC) essentially believe is the following:

1. Faith initiates you into the salvific system of EO (i.e. it is your entrance fee.) You must now maintain you salvation (pay your dues) or you are kicked out of the salvation club.
2. Baptism likewise initiates you into the salvific system of the EO. You must maintain that salvation by having faith once you hit the "age of accountability" and taking part in the sacramental system.

The conflation of 1 and 2 does not seem to cause anyone to bat an eyelash.

These systems evolve out of 1. the insistence upon infant baptism to regenerate people (how can you make sure people are saved if they are baptized, and grow up living like demons?) and 2. a measurable way to see if people actually continue living in the faith.

Augustine, for example, obviously taught something very close as we see above. Whether or not he was as wedded to the necessity of works to maintain salvation, or rather that the faithful will feel compelled to do these things, is a matter of debate. The fact that Augustine clearly taught monergism, it appear to me anyway patently obvious that it is GOd at all time who ultimatley works out the salvation of the believer.

However, as EO and RCC for that matter have evolved, they anachronistically look back at the Fathers and presume when they talk about sacraments that the believe in a priestly system. However, you will find the "hail marys," the Priest being an alter christus, and other anachronisms within the ancient church. So, to view the ancient church as identically sacramental and priestly as the modern EO and RCC churches is wrongheaded.

The following quote from St. Jerome pretty much lays bare that even in the late 4th, early 5th centuries they were aware that presbyters were Church rulers, and not priestly intercessors that controlled our salvation by meting out sacraments: http://books.google.com/books?id=qK...8EJl2-Jv8GRfODe0Lw&ci=102,232,781,1156&edge=0

 

[abacabb3]

I remembered when I spoke to a Catholic priest recently and asked about salvation and his response was not much different then something a Baptist preacher would say.

It's possible he has very inconsistent theology. I have talked to Catholics who think everyone is saved. My wife and I have been giving thought to going heavy after Catholics as we have with JWs, but one step at a time. The other possibility is that he left out the important detail that you must maintain your salvation by doing sacraments through a verified, certified priest.

 

[GQ Chris]

roman catholicism is very Ecumenical; they love gatherings where catholics are with other religions and sing Kumbaya.

 

[gord44]

The other possibility is that he left out the important detail that you must maintain your salvation by doing sacraments through a verified, certified priest.

I asked him about that and I got a similar response as from an EO priest I correspond with. Basically...Salvation is available outside the church, salvation is up to God, God is merciful. Both the EO and RCC see themselves as the best place for a soul to be to continue on the path of salvation. Like a spiritual hospital with the 'best doctors'. But one doesn't have to go to that hospital for salvation.

 

[GQ Chris]

roman catholic Salvation is you working with Jesus to get saved. You have a part to play.

 

[gord44]

roman catholic Salvation is you working with Jesus to get saved. You have a part to play.

pretty much.

 

[GQ Chris]

I'm quite enjoying that other thread. I'm in amazement how some people not thoroughly convinced about Christ can still be so enthusiastic in "working" for their Salvation.

 

[gord44]

I'm quite enjoying that other thread. I'm in amazement how some people not thoroughly convinced about Christ can still be so enthusiastic in "working" for their Salvation.

Some folks like that style of Christianity. I found it appealing for a while.