predicting Christ's coming

Handmaid for Jesus · Feb 25, 2013

In other words, EVERYTHING has been set for nearly 2000 years. It could happen at any moment or in another 50,000 years. We just don't KNOW!

Guess what??? We agree!!!!

Hallelujah!

eclipsenow · Feb 26, 2013

Ronald said:
I meant again in modern times, a futurists view of prophecy!

I know what you meant, but the reforming of a largely secular state of Israel is meaningless from a theological point of view. Everything was done in Christ.

You have an amillenialist view, sit tight, you'll snap out of it when the action starts. No quarrels necessary, just different and mostly irreconcialable views ... until the fat lady sings of course!

Which fat lady is this, on what day? We've already had one prediction here from Marantha... but I missed the details. From the tone of Marantha's last post, I'm assuming the Rapture is next month. Cool. I'm sick of paying my mortgage anyway...

But otherwise, no, a few weird events won't make me Pretrib or Posttrib or Premil or Postmil or whatever futurist scheme you are. Only convincing theology will do that. And from what I've seen of the bickering, conflicted hoards of futurists all insisting that theirs is the main way to read the bible literally (when they really do whatever they want to it anyway), I'm simply NOT convinced by futurists of any flavour, stripe, or creed.

Bible2 · Feb 26, 2013

eclipsenow said in post 93:

He wants, no, needs it to be literal to read as his timetable of the future.

Regarding "literal", Revelation is almost entirely literal, for the reasons given in the "Revelation is almost entirely literal" part of post 69.

Regarding "timetable", Rev. chs. 6-22 are a timetable, for the reasons given in the "Rev. chs. 6-22 are a timetable" part of post 69.

Regarding "future", Rev. chs. 6-22 are future, for the reasons given in the "Rev. chs. 6-22 are future" part of post 69.

eclipsenow said in post 93:

However I see John calling his generation to hear and obey Revelation.

The original Greek word ("tereo", G5083) translated as "keep" in Rev. 1:3 can be used in the sense of obeying commandments (Jn. 14:15). But almost all of Revelation doesn't consist of commandments, but of prophecies of future events (Rev. 1:1,3, 22:7) which aren't things to be "obeyed". For example, how would believers "obey" the prophecy regarding the weird locust-like beings (Rev. 9:3-11)? Instead, "tereo"/"keep" in Rev. 1:3, 22:7 is used in the sense of holding onto something precious (Jn. 12:7, 2:10b, 17:11,12,15, Eph. 4:3) instead of casting it away as worthless. We are to "keep"/hold onto all of Revelation as being the precious truth, from Jesus himself to the church (Rev. 1:1, 22:16), just as we are to "keep"/hold onto Christian faith itself (2 Tim. 4:7b), even during the worst time for the church during the future tribulation (Rev. 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 20:4-6).

eclipsenow said in post 93:

John writing to his generation in apocalyptic symbolism they would have understood as the gospel, and rather than being mystified by it, would have heard and obeyed and been encouraged by its relevance and meaning.

Regarding "being mystified by it", there would have been no reason for that when it's almost entirely literal.

Regarding "its relevance", just as Jesus' 2nd coming in Rev. 19:7-20:3 has always been relevant to Christians (for all scripture is profitable: 2 Tim. 3:16) despite the fact that it has never been fulfilled, but will be fulfilled almost entirely literally in our future, so the highly-detailed and chronological events of the preceding tribulation in Rev. chs. 6-18, and the subsequent millennium and other events in Rev. chs. 20-22, have always been relevant to Christians, despite the fact that they have never been fulfilled, but will be fulfilled almost entirely literally in our future. Also, Christians don't have to experience every literal event in scripture, whether past literal events (e.g. Gen. chs. 1-11) or future literal events (e.g. Rev. chs. 6-18) for every scripture to be profitable to Christians (2 Tim. 3:16).

eclipsenow said in post 93:

Futurists unintentionally rob John's generation of all that, and just make this book all about them: their special insights into this generation, their amazing story about amazing things that are happening in their lifetimes.

Regarding "things that are happening in their lifetimes", futurism considers today's headlines regarding such things as geopolitics & technology in order to help believers consider different ways for how exactly the never-fulfilled, yet still understandable, & almost entirely literal, highly-detailed prophecies in Rev. chs. 6-18 might be fulfilled in our future. For example, Christians at any time in the past could understand Rev. 6:4-8 refers to a horrible, literal war which will start the tribulation, & which, with its aftermath of famines & epidemics, will end up killing 1/4 of the world. They could understand this without having to know, for example, what nation will start the war, or what weapons will be employed in the war. All futurism does it consider these things. For another example, Christians at any time in the past could understand Rev. 13:14-15 refers to a literal image (Greek: "eikon", something made in the likeness) of the Antichrist, which will appear to be alive, which will speak, & which people will have to worship or be killed. Christians in the past could understand this without having to know, for example, whether the image will be two-dimensional or three-dimensional (or both), or what it will be made of, or how it will be made to speak & appear to be alive. All futurism does is consider these things.

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eclipsenow said in post 99:

In other words, EVERYTHING has been set for nearly 2000 years. It could happen at any moment or in another 50,000 years. We just don't KNOW!

If by "It could happen at any moment", you mean Jesus' 2nd coming, that isn't possible, because Jesus won't come and gather together (rapture) the church until immediately after the future tribulation of Rev. chs. 6-18/Mt. 24 (Mt. 24:29-31, 2 Thes. 2:1-8). That's why the marriage of the church doesn't happen until Rev. 19:7, in connection with Jesus' 2nd coming and the bodily resurrection of the church at that time (Rev. 19:7-20:6, 1 Cor. 15:21-23,51-53, 1 Thes. 4:15-16). Mt. 24:30-31 refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus and gathering together (rapture) of the church as 2 Thes. 2:1, which refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus and catching up together (rapture) of the church as 1 Thes. 4:15-17.

Jesus won't return and gather together (rapture) the church until sometime after there's a falling away (an apostasy) in the church, and the Antichrist sits in a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaims himself God (2 Thes. 2:1-4, Dan. 11:31,36, Rev. 11:1-2, 13:4-8), and the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place of the 3rd Jewish temple (Mt. 24:15-31, Dan. 11:31). For when Jesus returns to gather together (and marry) the church he will destroy the Antichrist (2 Thes. 2:1,8, Rev. 19:7,20). Before Jesus returns, the church will have to go through the future, literal 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Rev. 13:5-10, 14:12-13, 20:4-6, Mt. 24:9-31). At Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Thes. 4:15, 2 Thes. 2:1, Mt. 24:30), the church will be resurrected and caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thes. 4:16-17, 2 Thes. 2:1, Mt. 24:31), not to remove the church from the earth (Prov. 10:30, Jn. 17:15,20), but to take the church only as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thes. 4:17).

At that meeting, Jesus will judge everyone in the church (Ps. 50:3-5, cf. Mk. 13:27) by their works (2 Cor. 5:10, Rom. 2:6-8, Lk. 12:45-48, Mt. 25:19-30) and then Jesus will marry in the clouds the obedient part of the church (Rev. 19:7-8, Mt. 25:1-12), those in the church (of all times) who "overcame" (Rev. 3:5). Then they will mount white horses and come back down from the sky (the first heaven) with Jesus (Rev. 19:14) as he defeats the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) and all the unsaved armies of the world (Rev. 19:15-21). Jesus will then make the marriage supper of Rev. 19:9 for the resurrected and married obedient part of the church in the earthly Jerusalem (Isa. 25:6-9, 1 Cor. 15:54). Jesus and the obedient part of the church will then reign on the earth for a thousand years (Rev. 20:4-6, 5:10, 2:26-29).

eclipsenow said in post 99:

In other words, EVERYTHING has been set for nearly 2000 years. It could happen at any moment or in another 50,000 years. We just don't KNOW!

If by "It could happen . . . in another 50,000 years", you mean Jesus' 2nd coming, he may not wait that long, for the reasons given in the "Mt. 24:34" part of post 67.

If by "We just don't KNOW", you mean when Jesus' 2nd coming will occur, we could come to know at some point in the future, for the reasons given in the "Mt. 24:36" part of post 67.

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eclipsenow said in post 90:

Jesus does NOT have a sword tongue . . .

The "sword", not a sword "tongue", in Rev. 1:16 and Rev. 19:15,21 could be a literal, spiritual sword, like the one in Gen. 3:24.

eclipsenow said in post 90:

. . . does NOT have 7 eyes and 7 horns . . .

Parts of Rev. 5:6 are literal (God's throne in heaven, the 4 beasts, the 24 elders, Jesus having been slain, the 7 Spirits of God, the earth) and parts of Rev. 5:6 are symbolic (Jesus being a lamb, his having 7 horns, his having 7 eyes).

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eclipsenow said in post 103:

And from what I've seen of the bickering, conflicted hoards of futurists all insisting that theirs is the main way to read the bible literally (when they really do whatever they want to it anyway), I'm simply NOT convinced by futurists of any flavour, stripe, or creed.

Just as people shouldn't reject Christianity per se simply because it's divided into different denominations, which can't agree on what all the scriptures mean, so people shouldn't reject futurism per se simply because it's divided into different schools (e.g. pre-trib or post-trib, dispensational or covenantal), which can't agree on what all the prophetic scriptures mean. People should nonetheless accept Christianity per se, for it is scriptural & nothing disproves it, just as they should accept futurism per se, for it is scriptural & nothing disproves it.

eclipsenow · Feb 26, 2013

Bible2 said:
The "sword", not a sword "tongue", in Rev. 1:16 and Rev. 19:15,21 could be a literal, spiritual sword, like the one in Gen. 3:24.

But it doesn't SAY spiritual sword tongue, and you're the one trying to prove to us how literally you read this! So, do you read it literally or not? Or do you just insert what ever you want when ever you want it. It's quite a simple question really. Does Revelation say Jesus had a SPIRITUAL sword coming out of his mouth or not? No? Then you have no business pushing your weird belief that this is LITERAL when the Apostle Paul openly calls the gospel word of God the 'Sword of the Spirit'. John was merely explaining, in apocalyptic symbolism, that Jesus is about to expand on his gospel word to us. So LISTEN to him and obey, because this is the GOSPEL we are about to hear, the Word of God! (Not a silly, irrelevant future timetable).

Parts of Rev. 5:6 are literal (God's throne in heaven, the 4 beasts, the 24 elders, Jesus having been slain, the 7 Spirits of God, the earth)

Prove it! The 24 elders fit right in with Jewish number and theological symbolism. It could represent both covenants. (12 tribes of Israel and 12 apostles). Also, the 7 spirits of God theory you have is quite alarming: I'd even call it heresy. God is one God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit: ONE Holy Spirit. He is trinity, not trinity 'plus' 7 spirits when he chooses!

It's called SYMBOLISM!

and parts of Rev. 5:6 are symbolic

Boy, you've changed your tune! Now please go read a book on hermeneutics 101 so you stop embarrassing yourself with the rest of Revelation.

Just as people shouldn't reject Christianity per se simply because it's divided into different denominations, which can't agree on what all the scriptures mean, so people shouldn't reject futurism per se simply because it's divided into different schools (e.g. pre-trib or post-trib, dispensational or covenantal), which can't agree on what all the prophetic scriptures mean. People should nonetheless accept Christianity per se, for it is scriptural & nothing disproves it, just as they should accept futurism per se, for it is scriptural & nothing disproves it.

1. Futurism is NOT scriptural: EVERYTHING was fulfilled in Christ's first advent apart from the final Judgement Day when Jesus returns.
2. The fact that you futurists are at each other's throats trying to out do each other's timetables just confirms what an impoverished system it is.

eclipsenow · Feb 26, 2013

Bible2 said:
If by "It could happen at any moment", you mean Jesus' 2nd coming, that isn't possible, because Jesus won't come and gather together (rapture) the church until immediately after the future tribulation of Rev. chs. 6-18/Mt. 24 (Mt. 24:29-31, 2 Thes. 2:1-8). .

Revelation is about the Last Days, isn't it? And as we've seen, the Last Days have been here for 2000 years and counting. (Acts 2, Hebrews 1, etc).

Not only that, but Matthew 24 WAS fulfilled in AD70 despite all your petty little arguments about a retaining wall. The disciples were asking Jesus about THAT temple. What, do you think Jesus LIED to them? Do you think Jesus intentionally MISLED them!? Because, mate, that is what you are saying. They said "Look, Jesus, look at THESE awesome buildings!" Then Jesus said THIS GENERATION will see THESE buildings destroyed!"

If he meant a still hypothetical 3rd temple Jesus WOULD have made it clearer. You would have him be a LIAR and CHEAT to those poor disciples. You know that, don't you?

You know deep down that you are wrong, and that all this futurism you're pushing is a bunch of self-indulgent codswallop so you can tell 'Christian camp-fire ghost stories' about how bad the tribulation is going to be and your precious Android Image of the AntiChrist, etc. That is an outrageously misleading and patronising position! All those martyrs last century, and you just brush it aside as if we WERE not in the Last Days.

1. We're in the Last Days.
2. That means suffering described throughout the New Testament.
3. But you've been totally thrown off the mark because you wouldn't recognise a metaphor or symbol if you fell over it.

SharonL · Feb 26, 2013

It doesn't matter if you believe in pre or post - it will be interesting to be part of this beautiful rapture and as we are being taken out of this wrath of God - you will hear an overwhelming theme song of - 'I told you so.' LOL

Keachian · Feb 26, 2013

SharonL said:
It doesn't matter if you believe in pre or post - it will be interesting to be part of this beautiful rapture and as we are being taken out of this wrath of God - you will hear an overwhelming theme song of - 'I told you so.' LOL

I would hope not, it would in my opinion be completely contrary to the nature which at that point in time we would be entering into the final phase of transformation into, to be concerned enough about beating a brother or sister in Christ at that point in time to be derogatory towards them is not reflecting the glory to which we are entering into, is not glorifying to Christ.

eclipsenow · Feb 26, 2013

SharonL said:
It doesn't matter if you believe in pre or post - it will be interesting to be part of this beautiful rapture and as we are being taken out of this wrath of God - you will hear an overwhelming theme song of - 'I told you so.' LOL

Hi,
the thing about the 'rapture' is that I don't actually disagree that something will happen to keep us safe from the wrath, but what that actually looks like or feels like on That Day is unknown to us. The language of being 'caught up' is the same as Noah's being 'caught up'... he's taken away from the flood which immediately destroys the world left behind. And that's the point. There's no real delay. Just as in the days of Noah...

Interplanner · Feb 26, 2013

THe question of futurism is what things are future. Obviously some are. But when Rom 11's wraps up all its deliberation about the paradox of Israel (its unbelief), it says God had completed dealing with this, with 3 emphatic "nows" to indicate when. Paul's now. Likewise the quote of Isaiah. It is historic. The way a person is saved is not a future event; the Redeemer came to zion (our past tense; Isaiah's future) and took away sins. So 'kai houtos' "in this way" means there will be a partial hardening to the end of time, and a person (including a Hebrew) is saved by the Redeemer who came to Zion, by believing that. This shifts many things that "futurists" think are future to the historic realm where they stand as landmarks that define the rest of time.

So we can say: more things are historically set than most futurists think.

--Inter

eclipsenow · Feb 27, 2013

Bible2 said:
Mt. 24:36,42,44 refers to Jesus' 2nd coming (Mt. 24:37,42,44), which Jesus had just finished saying won't happen until immediately after the tribulation (Mt. 24:29-31). So in Mt. 24:42,44, Jesus could mean that only if believers don't watch (stay awake, spiritually) during the tribulation, the 2nd coming will happen at an hour they don't know/think not (cf. the if principle of Rev. 3:3b). In the context of Mt. 24:36,42,44, Jesus suggests it's possible for believers to know when the 2nd coming will occur and to watch for it (Mt. 24:43-44a, 1 Thes. 5:4). Also, Jesus says "of that day and hour knoweth no man" (Mt. 24:36), he doesn't say "of that day and hour no man will know". So it's possible at some point in the future some believers will come to know the date (as in the year, month, and day) of the 2nd coming before it happens.

The verses you've quoted specifically forbid us knowing. The other verses talk about 'being ready' or staying Christian. Absolutely NOTHING here encourages us to indulge in the theological equivalent of crystal ball grazing. You're just making this stuff up as you go along, and adding whatever you want to the bible.

Bible2 · Feb 27, 2013

eclipsenow said in post 105:

The 24 elders fit right in with Jewish number and theological symbolism.

Rev. 4:4's twenty-four elders could be 24 chief angels, who, along with the 4 beasts/seraphims, have been worshipping God continually (as in 24 hours a day) for untold ages (Rev. 4:8-11, Isa. 6:2-3). Just as the ancient Jewish temple on earth was modeled after the temple in heaven (Heb. 9:23-24), so the 24 courses of the ancient Jewish chief priests on earth (1 Chr. 24:7-18) could have been modeled after the 24 elders in heaven. God could have also patterned the 24 hours of the day on earth after the 24 elders in heaven. And he could have also patterned the church's 12 tribes of Israel & 12 apostles (Rev. 21:9,12,14), together forming the number 24, after the 24 elders in heaven.

At the time of Rev. 5:8-9, the 24 elders & the 4 beasts/seraphims could be singing before God the prayers of the church (Rev. 5:8c), just as subsequently we see an angel offering up before God the prayers of the church (Rev. 8:4). So in Rev. 5:9, the 24 elders & the 4 beasts/seraphims could be singing words which don't apply to themselves, just as human singers on earth can sing words which don't apply to themselves (e.g. James Taylor singing the words of the song "Millworker", which are the words of a female millworker).

eclipsenow said in post 105:

God is one God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit

Amen.

And just as the one God can at the same time be 3 Persons (Mt. 28:19), so the one Holy Spirit of God can at the same time be 7 Spirits of God (Isa. 11:2, Rev. 1:4, 3:1, 4:5, 5:6).

eclipsenow said in post 105:

EVERYTHING was fulfilled in Christ's first advent apart from the final Judgement Day when Jesus returns.

It wasn't, for the reasons given in the "Rev. chs. 6-22 are future" part of post 69.

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eclipsenow said in post 106:

Revelation is about the Last Days, isn't it?

Yes.

eclipsenow said in post 106:

And as we've seen, the Last Days have been here for 2000 years and counting. (Acts 2, Hebrews 1, etc).

That's right, as was shown in the "last days" part of post 69.

eclipsenow said in post 106:

Not only that, but Matthew 24 WAS fulfilled in AD70 despite all your petty little arguments about a retaining wall.

It's not a petty argument, but is based on the scriptural reasons given in the "Wailing Wall" part of post 86.

Also, just as the highly detailed tribulation events of Rev. chs. 6-18 have never been fulfilled, so the tribulation events of Mt. 24, Mk. 13, Lk. 21 have never been fulfilled. For Lk. 21:24 refers to the same future treading down of Jerusalem by the Gentiles as Rev. 11:2b, during the Antichrist's future, literal 42-month worldwide reign. And Jesus' second coming and the church's gathering together (rapture) in Mt. 24:30-31 (2 Thes. 2:1-8, 1 Thes. 4:15-17) has never been fulfilled, but must occur immediately after the future tribulation of Mt. 24/Rev. chs. 6-18 (Mt. 24:29-31, 2 Thes. 2:1-8, Rev. 19:7-20:6).

Also, in Mt. 24:15, Jesus is referring to Dan. 11:31, in which the "abomination of desolation" was typically fulfilled by the abomination of desolation in 1 Maccabees 1:54, which occurred in the holy place of the second Jewish temple in Jerusalem in the time of Antiochus IV. But per Jesus' statement in Mt. 24:15, the church will see the abomination of desolation in Dan. 11:31 fulfilled (antitypically) in the future, when the church will see the abomination of desolation "stand" "in" the holy place (of a third Jewish temple in Jerusalem). This future abomination of desolation could be a standing, android image of the Antichrist (Rev. 13:15) which his followers ("they") will put in the holy place of the temple (Dan. 11:31) to be worshipped (Rev. 13:15), after "they" have stopped the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices which the ultra-Orthodox Jews will have restarted in front of the temple (Dan. 11:31). This image will "pollute" the holy place of the temple (Dan. 11:31).

The Antichrist will then fulfill Dan. 11:36/2 Thes. 2:4 by sitting himself in the temple and proclaiming himself God. By the power of Satan (the dragon, Rev. 12:9), the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) will then rule and be worshipped by all the nations of the earth for 3.5 literal years (Rev. 13:4-18), and will physically overcome Biblical Christians in every nation (Rev. 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 20:4-6, Mt. 24:9-13).

Also, from the day on which (antitypically) "the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be 1,290 days. Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the 1,335 days" (Dan. 12:11-12, Rev. 16:15). Also, because the Antichrist will fulfill Dan. 11:31 antitypically and will fulfill Dan. 11:36 for the first (and only) time, then he will also fulfill all of Dan. 11:21-45 (the first part of it antitypically, and the rest for the first and only time) when he arises on the world stage, for that passage refers to the career of the same man. And since the Antichrist will fulfill all of Dan. 11:21-45 when he arises on the world stage, then just preceding his arising on the world stage, Dan. 11:13-19 could be fulfilled antitypically by an Iraqi Baathist General completely defeating and occupying Israel and Egypt with a huge Iraqi Army (Dan. 11:15-17; in verse 17 the original Hebrew word translated as "daughter" is "bath").

eclipsenow said in post 106:

Then Jesus said THIS GENERATION will see THESE buildings destroyed!"

Regarding "this generation", see the "Mt. 24:34" part of post 67.

eclipsenow said in post 106:

If he meant a still hypothetical 3rd temple Jesus WOULD have made it clearer.

He made it clearer later (cf. Jn. 16:12), for Rev. 11:1-2 and 2 Thes. 2:4 make clear that there will be a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem during the future tribulation of Rev. chs. 6-18/Mt. 24. The 3rd temple will coexist with the church like the 2nd temple did (Lk. 24:53, Acts 22:17) and like the temple building in heaven does (Rev. 11:19). The 3rd temple could be built on Jerusalem's Temple Mount by the ultra-Orthodox Jews after they clear the site by destroying the Muslim Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque. Shortly after they build it, the Antichrist could attack and defeat them and a false Messiah leading them (Dan. 11:22).

Then the Antichrist could "cut" a peace treaty with them and their false "Messiah" (Dan. 9:26a, 11:23a) permitting them to keep the temple, and to continue to perform the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices in front of it for at least 7 more years (Dan. 9:27a), so long as they give up the temple's outer court (Rev. 11:2a) to the Muslims so that the Muslims can rebuild the Al Aqsa Mosque on the southern end of the Temple Mount and resume worship there. The ultra-Orthodox Jews could grudgingly agree to this, if the only other option is for them to lose the temple entirely. They could then build a high wall between the temple and the mosque, in order to keep the temple from being defiled.

But then, only some 3.5 years after making the peace treaty, the Antichrist will break the treaty, attack the temple, stop the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices, place the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) in the holy place of the temple (Dan. 9:27b, 11:31, Mt. 24:15), and then sit himself in the temple and proclaim himself God (2 Thes. 2:4, Dan. 11:36). Thus could begin the Antichrist's literal 3.5-year Luciferian (Satanic) worldwide reign of terror (Rev. 13:4-18, 12:9, 2 Thes. 2:9).

At the very end of the future tribulation of Rev. chs. 6-18/Mt. 24, the Antichrist (Dan. 11:45) and the world's armies will pillage Jerusalem right before Jesus' 2nd coming (Zech. 14:2-21), and at the 2nd coming there will be tremendous earth changes in the vicinity of Jerusalem (Zech. 14:4-5). These events could result in all of Jerusalem's structures, including the 3rd temple and the Wailing Wall (also called the Western Wall), being broken down so that not one stone will be left on another (Lk. 19:44, Mt. 24:2). Then the returned Jesus (Zech. 14:4, Acts 1:11-12) will rebuild Jerusalem and make it the capital of the world (Zech. 14:8-19, Mic. 4:1-4), and he will build a 4th temple there (Zech. 14:20-21, 6:12-13). It will serve a similar function for the church during the future millennium (Rev. 20:4-6) as the 2nd temple served for the church in the 1st century AD (Lk. 24:53, Acts 22:17) and as the temple building in heaven (Rev. 11:19) serves for those in heaven (Rev. 7:15).

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One reason the 3rd Jewish temple hasn't been built yet is the Israeli government is protecting the Muslim Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque (the 3rd-holiest buildings in Islam, right after those in Mecca and Medina), knowing that if the ultra-Orthodox Jews were to destroy these buildings in order to clear the Temple Mount for a 3rd Jewish temple, this could mean the end of the state of Israel. For enraged Muslim armies and militias could attack Israel en masse in an all-out jihad and defeat it completely. While the ultra-Orthodox Jews are no doubt aware of this danger, they believe the 3rd temple must nonetheless be built exactly where the prior temples stood: right over the Rock of Sacrifice (the Rock of the Dome of the Rock) on which Abraham almost sacrificed Isaac. And the ultra-Orthodox Jews could be brought to the point where they will even desire to see the end of the current, secular state of Israel, believing that only in its demise will God make it possible for them to establish a new, perfectly ultra-Orthodox, theocratic state of Israel.

Something that could bring the ultra-Orthodox Jews to this point would be them getting squeezed out of their settlements in Samaria and Judaea (also called the West Bank) and East Jerusalem, as part of a peace deal handing these areas over to a Palestinian state. For the ultra-Orthodox Jews (rightly) see Samaria, Judaea, and Jerusalem as the historically most important and holy parts of the land promised by God to Israel since the time of Abraham (Ex. 32:13). So when they start to get squeezed out of these areas, in a rage they could suddenly mass in their tens of thousands, armed with machine guns (which they're allowed to have for self-defense against the Palestinians), and led by three huge bulldozers they could march as a great army to the Old City of Jerusalem and go up onto the Temple Mount and destroy the Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque.

Besides getting squeezed out of their settlements, something else that could tip the scales toward this happening would be the rising up of a false, miracle-working, ultra-Orthodox Jewish "Messiah" (Mt. 24:24), who could tell the ultra-Orthodox Jews something like:

"God says that now is the time for us to take back religious control of the Holy Temple Mount and rid it of all the detestable shrines which the Muslims have placed upon it. We are to sanctify it in the name of our God so that we might rebuild His Holy Temple there. Listen, my brethren, fear not the Muslims' reaction when we retake religious control of the Holy Temple Mount. For God Himself is with us. He will protect us perfectly. Have I not shown you His mighty Power working through Me? Fear not any men, but fear only our Mighty God, who now commands us to rebuild His Holy Temple at the place He determined from the time of our Father Abraham. Our God gave us back the Holy Temple Mount way back in 1967 C.E. But what have we done with it over all the time since then? Nothing! How can this be? How can we have allowed some merely-secular, so-called 'Israeli' government invented by sinful men to keep us, God's holy people, from even setting foot back on the Temple Mount? Let us rise up, my brethren! Let us all rise up, in the name of our God, and let us do mighty exploits to the Glory of His Holy Name!"

Something else that could help tip the scales regarding the ultra-Orthodox Jews in Israel becoming violent is their finding out the location of the Ark of the Covenant, which could be buried under an ancient ruined fort in the desert east of Jerusalem. The Copper Scroll could contain the clues as to where the Ark is buried in the fort (e.g. "under the third step"). The Ark could have been located there already with ground-penetrating radar by some non-religious treasure hunters, but the Israeli government could be holding up a digging permit to retrieve the Ark because the government is afraid the ultra-Orthodox Jews could see the discovery of the Ark as (in their words) "an unmistakable sign from God that now is the time for us to rebuild His Holy Temple". So the Israeli government has a motive to keep the location of the buried Ark top secret.

Bible2 · Feb 27, 2013

eclipsenow said in post 106:

That is an outrageously misleading and patronising position!

It isn't; it's a scriptural position. But symbolicism, like some other positions, could be a mistakenly fearful position. For symbolicism, like preterism (whether full or partial), historicism (in its various modern forms), pre-trib rapturism, and spiritualism, could all have originated from the same spirit of fear, that the church alive today throughout the world would otherwise have to physically suffer through the future, almost-entirely literal, worldwide tribulation of Rev. chs. 6-18/Mt. 24. For these 5 views of symbolicism, preterism, historicism, pre-trib rapturism, and spiritualism, in their different ways, each gives a mistaken assurance to the church alive today that it won't have to physically suffer through that tribulation.

Symbolicism says the tribulation is only symbolic of theological themes which those in the church have always had to struggle with (e.g. Mt. 6:24), or is symbolic of only-local physical persecutions which some in the church have always had to face, and are still facing today in some places. And preterism says the tribulation happened in 70 AD. Historicism says it happened over a long period in history (for example, during the rise and height of the RCC's power in Europe during the Middle Ages and after, or during the rise and spread of Islam in the Middle East and elsewhere during the Middle Ages and after). Pre-trib rapturism says Jesus will return and rapture the church into the 3rd heaven before the tribulation begins. And spiritualism says the tribulation is only spiritual events, which go on only within the hearts of individuals.

But when the almost-entirely literal, worldwide tribulation of Rev. chs. 6-18/Mt. 24 begins in the future, the shaky doctrinal wall which (in their different ways) these 5 views have each tried to build up between the church and the tribulation, will be completely shattered (Ezek. 13:10-12) as the church worldwide begins to physically suffer through the tribulation (Mt. 24:9-31, Rev. 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 20:4-6). These 5 views may have left some in the church completely unprepared mentally to undergo this physical suffering, to where these 5 views could even contribute to some in the church ultimately losing their salvation because of committing apostasy (Heb. 6:4-8, Jn. 15:6, 2 Tim. 2:12) during the tribulation, when they become "offended" that God is making them and their little ones physically suffer through it (Mt. 24:9-12, 13:21, Isa. 8:21-22, Lk. 8:13).

Even though the church today throughout the world will have to physically suffer through the future, almost-entirely literal, worldwide tribulation of Rev. chs. 6-18/Mt. 24, the church need not fear this (cf. 1 Pet. 4:12-13, Rev. 2:10), for even though many in the church will suffer and die during that time (Rev. 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 20:4-6, Mt. 24:9-13), this will be to their gain (Philip. 1:21,23, 2 Cor. 5:8, 4:17-18, 2 Tim. 2:12), and it won't rob them of the blessed hope (Titus 2:13) of obtaining eternal life (Titus 1:2, 3:7) in an immortal, physical resurrection body (Rom. 8:23-25, Philip. 3:21, Lk. 24:39) at Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Cor. 15:21-23,51-53, 1 Thes. 4:15-16, Rev. 19:7-20:6), which will occur immediately after the tribulation (Mt. 24:29-31, Rev. 19:7-20:6).

eclipsenow said in post 106:

All those martyrs last century, and you just brush it aside as if we WERE not in the Last Days.

Regarding the last days, that hasn't been denied (see above).

Also, futurism doesn't deny that many Christians in the past/present have gone/are going through terrible tribulations. But neither does futurism deny the fact that no past or present tribulation in the general sense (Acts 14:22, Jn. 16:33, Rom. 5:3, Eph. 3:13, 2 Thes. 1:4) has ever fulfilled the highly-detailed & chronological events of the specific tribulation described in Rev. chs. 6-18. Also, while Mt. 24:21 refers to the future, worldwide tribulation like has never affected the whole world before, Mt. 24:21 doesn't require that the future tribulation will be worse for every individual than, for example, Job's personal tribulation, or the Jews' tribulation in the Holocaust, or the tribulation of some people in the early church (e.g. Rev. 2:10). For some people in the church will be protected on the earth during the future tribulation (Rev. 12:6,14-16).

*******

eclipsenow said in post 111:

The verses you've quoted specifically forbid us knowing.
[/quote

They don't, for the reasons given in the "Mt. 24:36" part of post 67.

Bible2 · Feb 27, 2013

SharonL said in post 107:

It doesn't matter if you believe in pre or post . . .

It could matter for some people.

The mistaken idea of a pre-tribulation rapture is dangerous because when no pre-tribulation rapture occurs, and pre-trib believers begin to suffer in the tribulation, they could think God has somehow been defeated by Satan, that Satan by his power has caused a pre-trib rapture not to happen despite God wanting one to. Or they could think God has cruelly broken his (supposed) promise, that he's pulled the rug out from under them, that he cruelly lied to them and must now be laughing at their surprise and suffering (Prov. 1:26), so that in their rage they could curse God and commit apostasy during the tribulation (Isa. 8:21-22, Mt. 24:9-13, 13:21), to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Heb. 6:4-8, Jn. 15:6, 2 Tim. 2:12).

And even if they instead rightly think, "Okay, we must have just been mistaken in thinking the rapture was supposed to be pre-trib. Satan hasn't defeated God, and God didn't lie to us", nonetheless, because they had held so strongly to the pre-trib idea for so long, their minds could be completely unprepared to face the long tribulation that lies ahead of them (just as holding too strongly to the mistaken idea of preterism, or historicism, or symbolicism, or spiritualism, could leave some believers less prepared mentally to endure the future tribulation). The Bible gives believers clear warning ahead of time about everything they're going to have to face during the future tribulation (Mk. 13:23, Rev. chs. 6-18, 1:3, 22:16), so they can be better prepared mentally not to be blindsided (1 Pet. 4:12-13) or deceived by anything that's coming (Mt. 24:4-5,23-25, Rev. 13:13-18, 19:20), and so they can be better prepared mentally to endure the future tribulation with patience and faith to the end (Mt. 24:9-13, Rev. 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 20:4-6).

As an analogy of this mental preparation, imagine some kids were at a summer camp & their counselor told them: "Tomorrow there's going to be a long, hard hike, exactly 13.35 miles long" (cf. the 1,335 days of Dan. 12:11-12). The kids walked away & started talking among themselves. One of them said: "Well, he didn't say we all have to go on that hike, right?" And a 2nd kid said: "And he didn't say we all have to go the whole distance". But a 3rd kid said: "I'm pretty sure he meant the hike's whole distance is for all of us. He didn't say there's going to be a long, hard hike for only some of us, & a day of goofing off, or only a short, easy hike for others of us". But the 1st kid answered: "Nah, we don't have to go on that hike. I'm going fishing tomorrow". And the 2nd kid answered: "We all don't have to go the whole distance". But the 3rd kid answered: "Don't be so sure, you two. I'm going to bed early, so I'll be all fresh & ready for the whole distance of the hike".

The next day, at the morning camp meeting, the 1st kid brought his fishing pole & was all set for a day of fishing. But the 3rd kid brought his sturdy hiking boots & a big canteen of water & was all mentally prepared for a long day of hard hiking. The counselor then told the kids: "Okay, in a few minutes we're all going to start on the hike I told you about, so make sure you've got everything you need". The 1st kid felt sick to his stomach when he heard that. He dropped his fishing pole & sat down on the ground & started crying like a baby. He just couldn't imagine starting on a long, hard hike after he'd been all set for a day of just sitting around fishing. But he was forced to go on the whole hike anyway, & this made him & the 2nd kid (who thought he wouldn't have to go the whole distance) so mad at the counselor that they grumbled against him to the other kids during the latter part of the hike, cursing him out as a cruel taskmaster (Isa. 8:21-22, Mt. 24:9-13, 13:21).

But the 3rd kid took the whole hike in stride (Rev. 14:12, 13:10), & stuck up for the counselor the whole time, even though the 3rd kid suffered awfully from blisters during the hike. The counselor, even though he was at the head of the hiking line, could overhear what the kids said behind him. After the hike was over, he made sure to reward the 3rd kid by giving him as a gift the counselor's own fishing pole, & by making sure the 3rd kid was assigned day after day to only the most enviable camp duties, like getting to build & light the nightly campfire, & getting to make the evening camp announcements over the camp's PA system. But the counselor made sure to assign the 1st & 2nd kids to the worst kitchen & latrine cleaning duties day after day.

Keachian · Feb 27, 2013

ITT the blackhole of discussion appears to be post #69, we are currently sitting at about post #114 half of which are likely to be Bible2 referring everyone else back to post #69 even when they are interacting with post #69 and refuting said post.

eclipsenow · Feb 27, 2013

Bible2 said:
Rev. 4:4's twenty-four elders could be 24 chief angels

Then why call them Elders? Why not just call them angels? You're just adding whatever you want to the text again. You do that a lot, you know? Every single time you 'interpret' Revelation you add all sorts of things to the text.

At the time of Rev. 5:8-9, the 24 elders & the 4 beasts/seraphims could be singing before God the prayers of the church (Rev. 5:8c), just as subsequently we see an angel offering up before God the prayers of the church (Rev. 8:4).

I suppose this is 'literal' as well is it? See buddy, I don't know about you but when I pray the Lord hears my prayers right now and Jesus death and resurrection makes them acceptable to God and the Holy Spirit makes them earnest and pure. But you want to insert millennia into Revelation at some point, and so you would effectively render my prayers 'unread' until the end of time! Great, thanks for that!

So in Rev. 5:9, the 24 elders & the 4 beasts/seraphims could be singing words which don't apply to themselves, just as human singers on earth can sing words which don't apply to themselves (e.g. James Taylor singing the words of the song "Millworker", which are the words of a female millworker).

What on earth are you going on about now?

And just as the one God can at the same time be 3 Persons (Mt. 28:19), so the one Holy Spirit of God can at the same time be 7 Spirits of God (Isa. 11:2, Rev. 1:4, 3:1, 4:5, 5:6).

Isaiah 11:2 doesn't support 7 Spirits.
The Spirit of the Lord will rest on him
the Spirit of wisdom and of understanding,
the Spirit of counsel and of might,
the Spirit of the knowledge and fear of the Lord
Were you quoting Isaiah to try and support your heretical idea that God has Seven Spirits? You failed! This rather dishonest tactic of 'info spamming' you use to appear well informed is actually rather dishonest, don't you think? Seriously, I'm asking you a question. If you assert something to be true, and then list a bunch of verses, I would assume those verses to actually support your argument. But I'm finding, more and more, that the verses you quote hardly ever actually support your bizarro-world claims? Why is that? Do you want to apologise to this list for this rather dishonest M.O?
DOES THE ISAIAH VERSE YOU QUOTE EVEN MENTION THE NUMBER 7 AT ALL?

Revelation 1:4 has a number of possible readings.

4 John,
To the seven churches in the province of Asia:
Grace and peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits*** before his throne,
****Revelation 1:4 That is, the sevenfold Spirit

It's not a petty argument, but is based on the scriptural reasons given in the "Wailing Wall" part of post 86.

Really? And I suppose ALL those scriptures you quoted in post 86 actually relate to the subject at hand and support your argument exactly in the same way your Isaiah verse above DIDN'T!? Are you getting how this completely fraudulent misquoting of scripture AT people totally destroys your credibility?

Also, just as the highly detailed tribulation events of Rev. chs. 6-18 have never been fulfilled, so the tribulation events of Mt. 24, Mk. 13, Lk. 21 have never been fulfilled.

Your repetition is so dull.

Also, in Mt. 24:15, Jesus is referring to Dan. 11:31, in which the "abomination of desolation" was typically fulfilled by the abomination of desolation in 1 Maccabees 1:54, which occurred in the holy place of the second Jewish temple in Jerusalem in the time of Antiochus IV.

I TOTALLY agree with you here!

But per Jesus' statement in Mt. 24:15, the church will see the abomination of desolation in Dan. 11:31 fulfilled (antitypically) in the future,

FAIL! The disciples were asking about THAT temple, weren't they? Come on, be honest. They DIDN'T KNOW that a retaining wall would be left behind, somehow in YOUR BRAIN ONLY disqualifying Titus's abomination that caused permanent desolation! (Come on buddy, admit that the temple has not existed with one stone upon another for 2000 years now!)

when the church will see the abomination of desolation "stand" "in" the holy place (of a third Jewish temple in Jerusalem).

You just added those brackets to the text. If you go back to the Greek you'll find they're not really there.

This future abomination of desolation could be a standing, android image of the Antichrist (Rev. 13:15) which his followers ("they") will put in the holy place of the temple (Dan. 11:31) to be worshipped (Rev. 13:15),

EXTERMINATE! EXTERMINATE!

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-6XMmzgnjv6c/UPEgXGXNNJI/AAAAAAAAR2g/lIpr9kO_-Tw/s1600/s3_04_wal_40.jpg

after "they" have stopped the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices which the ultra-Orthodox Jews will have restarted in front of the temple (Dan. 11:31). This image will "pollute" the holy place of the temple (Dan. 11:31).

I think, ooohhh, let's see, yep, there it is... TITUS ALREADY DID THIS! OK, thought you ought to know.

The Antichrist will then fulfill Dan. 11:36/2 Thes. 2:4 by sitting himself in the temple and proclaiming himself God.

Luke 21 doesn't even mention the AoD but instead focuses on the armies surrounding Jerusalem, convincing me that the focus on these passages was descriptive. It will be 'like' the AoD, but it is not prescribing that it will be EXACTLY like that! Show me where in Matt 24 actually PRESCRIBES and PREDICTS that the AoD HAS TO DO A SINGLE THING YOU'VE SAID!???

"15 So when you see standing in the holy place the abomination that causes desolation, spoken of through the prophet Daniellet the reader understand 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. "

Oops! Fail! No standing in the temple there! Titus could easily fulfil this one because he DID go in and have the soldiers sacrifice to him in the temple courtyard.

Oh, and if we're going to read Mark 13 LITERALLY, then Titus does not belong in the temple courtyard of God's people as a conquering king having his soldiers sacrifice to him as a false god, no sirree! So lets look at it again....
Mark 13
14 When you see the abomination that causes desolation standing where it does not belonglet the reader understandthen let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains."

There you go! Titus! Titus Titus TITUS! He fulfils Mark 13 and Matthew 24 and DEFINITELY Luke 21, especially as Luke 21 doesn't even MENTION the AoD.

OK, I'm glad we sorted that out. There's no mention of an antichrist in these passages, and no requirement for anything in particular to happen other than something terribly inappropriate LIKE Daniel's AoD, and the BUILDINGS will all be knocked down. Both of these were fulfilled. Done.

By the power of Satan (the dragon, Rev. 12:9), the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) will then rule and be worshipped by all the nations of the earth for 3.5 literal years (Rev. 13:4-18), and will physically overcome Biblical Christians in every nation (Rev. 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 20:4-6, Mt. 24:9-13).

The 3.5 years is the whole of church history, andSatan has been ruling and overcoming Christians all that time. But he is also bound with regards to deceiving the nations, so that at least the gospel will go forward during this period as well. The church will not be forgotten or forsaken, even though it will suffer. It's picture language describing the same scenes and themes but from different angles.

Ronald · Feb 27, 2013

eclipsenow said:
eclipsenow said:

I know what you meant, but the reforming of a largely secular state of Israel is meaningless from a theological point of view. Everything was done in Christ.

Click to expand...

Everything was and is being done. People are still being saved. The Jews have been blinded until the times of the gentiles be fulfilled and then the Lord will lift their veils. Here are some scriptures that you may have overlooked:
"For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”

Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all." Rom.11:25-32

Which fat lady is this, on what day?

Click to expand...

You know in Indenpendence Day when Will Smith flies the alien spacecraft to nuke the alien mother ship and passes out cigars? He said, we can't smoke them until the fat lady sings! Keep you eye out for her, she's got a load voice! I'll send you a cigar if I hear her first. I've never smoked one before, but I think maybe this time!

From the tone of Marantha's last post, I'm assuming the Rapture is next month. Cool. I'm sick of paying my mortgage anyway.

Click to expand...

Yeah, well I'm getting old, unhealthy and I want a new body; so I say come Lord Jesus!

But otherwise, no, a few weird events won't make me Pretrib or Posttrib or Premil or Postmil or whatever futurist scheme you are. Only convincing theology will do that. And from what I've seen of the bickering, conflicted hoards of futurists all insisting that theirs is the main way to read the bible literally (when they really do whatever they want to it anyway), I'm simply NOT convinced by futurists of any flavour, stripe, or creed

Click to expand...

There are differences for sure, a half dozen views of Revelation. Among all the futurists, a common desire to have Jesus return and fix this corrupted world, put an end to sin, cast Satan and his horde down to the Abyss and lock him up and experience Paradise on Earth as it was and as it should be without wars, famine and injustice but with peace, love and prosperity for all. This is a craving for us. The earth groans for it. Can you imagine tigers and sheep grazing in a field, a baby playing with a cobra ... no fear, no suffering? Do you think God intended for us to live in a sinful world for eons of time? No, it is coming to a head. Good and evil will increase and soon be separated after the GT.

SharonL · Feb 27, 2013

Excerpts from Calvaryprophecy.com

* The re-gathering of the Jews into their homeland
(Ezekiel 37:11-13) after thousands of years of God ordained exile.
Another amazing fact, after thousands of years living in other
nations, there Jewish culture has remained intact.

* The rebirth of Israel as a nation in 1948
(Ezekiel 37:10-14; Isaiah 43:5, 6; 66:7-8) in one day.
Israel literally became a nation again in one day.
Following their declaration of statehood, the next day,
five Arab nations attacked Israel.
But Israel defeated them and has grown into a major world
military power. This prophecy of rebirth essentially kicked
off the beginning of the last generation.

* The Arab world will claim they are rightful owners of the
land of Israel (Ezekiel 35:5, 10; 36:2, 5). It wasn't until
the Jews began migrating back to Palestine in hopes of
declaring Israeli statehood that the Arab world laid claim
to the land. Before that, it was of no value to them.

* The desert land of Israel will bloom again during this last
generation (Luke 21:29-31; Isaiah 41:18-21). This has
literally happened in our lifetime. As stated in the last
bullet point, the land of Israel was a worthless desert place
while the Arabs occupied the land. However, once Israel
reclaimed their homeland, it has become an fertile oasis.

* The city of Jerusalem recaptured by Israel 19 years later
in 1967 (Zechariah 8:7-8; 12:3). Jerusalem can't be a stumbling
block to world peace if Israel if its not under their control.

* A Middle East peace plan with Israel, where Jerusalem is
considered a major stumbling block will develop in the last
days (Daniel 9:27; Zechariah 12:3). This is literally taking
place today.

* This peace plan with Israel will ultimately have a seven-year
time limit (Daniel 9:27). Right now, virtually every proposed
Middle East peace proposal has a timeline for which peace must
be realized. The splitting of Jerusalem is usually the final
jewel of every peace accord.

* The ruins of Israel will be rebuilt (Amos 9:11 &13). This
has kicked into high gear since Israel became a nation (1948).

* An eastern nation capable of fielding a 200 million man army
(Revelation 9:16) will arise during the tribulation period. No
nation has ever been able to field an army of this magnitude
until this generation (China & India).

* The Euphrates River will be dried up to enable a great army
to cross (Revelation 16:12). This could not have been done until
1990 without the help of modern day technology.

* During this generation, man will obtain the ability to view
an event simultaneously all over the world (Revelation 11:9-10).
Certainly, this was impossible until satellite technology was
invented during this generation.

* Russia, Iran, a host of northern African nations, and the
surrounding Islamic world will forge an alliance and attack
Israel (Ezekiel 38 & 39). Today, virtually all of these nations
(listed in Ezekiel 38) are already in an alliance with each other.

* World leaders will begin talking about world governance as
a necessary evil. This has become a major topic among the
global community especially since the beginning of the financial
crisis in the European Union. This will eventually lead to a
one world government led by the Antichrist (Revelation 13).
If you are a frequent reader of mine, you know that this is
happening as I write. The first significant world body called
the United Nations was created in 1945 to encourage global
cooperation.

* The temple will be rebuilt (Revelation 11:1, 2; Daniel 9:27).
This is still yet future, but it is a foregone conclusion that
various temple organizations, once the okay to rebuild is given,
will have it completed within months.

* The Antichrist will rise up out of the New Roman Empire known
today as the European Union (Daniel 9:27). He will lead this
one world government through false deception and eventually claim
to be God..

* In the last days, knowledge will increase dramatically
(Daniel 12:4). There is no debating the fact that knowledge
has increased in leaps and bounds over the last 100 years,
but particularly during the last 70-80 years.
Medicine and technological discoveries have exploded in this last generation.

I didn't even mention the increase in world travel
(Daniel 12:4) and the explosion of natural disasters that
was predicted for the last days. Even secular world news
reports acknowledge that we have had a tremendous increase in
freakish natural disasters over the last ten years.

delaola · Feb 27, 2013

eclipsenow said:
The 3.5 years is the whole of church history, andSatan has been ruling and overcoming Christians all that time. But he is also bound with regards to deceiving the nations, so that at least the gospel will go forward during this period as well. The church will not be forgotten or forsaken, even though it will suffer. It's picture language describing the same scenes and themes but from different angles.

Actually, the 3.5 years is from the crucifixion of Christ to the stoning of Stephen...which was in fact, 3.5 years.

Frenchfrye · Feb 27, 2013

Bible2 said:
Acts 15:14-17 doesn't say or mean Amos 9:11-12 is "fulfilled", only that the basic principle of the salvation of Gentiles "agrees" (Greek "sumphoneo", G4856) with the idea of Amos 9:11-12, & only as it was understood by the (fallible) individual quoted in Acts 15:14-17. A different way of understanding Amos 9:11-12 is by looking at the original Hebrew: Amos 9:11-12 can mean the house of David will be restored to power & will possess Edom & all other nations. This will be fulfilled during the coming millennium, which won't occur until after 2nd coming of Jesus (Rev. 19:7-20:6, Zech. 14:3-21), who is of the house of David (Lk. 1:69, Mt. 1:1), when Jesus will restore the house of David to power by sitting on the throne of David (Lk. 1:32, Isa. 9:7, 16:5) & ruling the earth (Zech. 14:9, Ps. 72:8-11).

Also, with regard to another part of Amos 9, verse 15 could refer to what will happen at Jesus' second coming (Isa. 9:7, Amos 9:11). For Amos 9:14-15 was spoken before the taking of the northern kingdom of Israel into captivity (Amos 8:14, 5:27) by the Assyrians in the eighth century B.C., and was spoken before the southern kingdom of Judah was taken into captivity by the Babylonians in the sixth century B.C. But Amos 9:14-15 didn't apply to the post-Babylonian Captivity restoration of the Jews to their land in 538 B.C., for that restoration was subsequently destroyed by the Romans in 70 A.D. So Amos 9:14-15 doesn't necessarily apply to the subsequent restoration of the Jews to their land in 1948 A.D. either. This restoration could be destroyed by the Baathists in a future war (Dan. 11:15-17; in verse 17 the original Hebrew word translated as "daughter" is "bath") at the start of the future tribulation of Rev. chs. 6-18/Mt. 24. Jesus will restore the Davidic kingdom of Israel (Lk. 1:32b-33, Isa. 9:7, Amos 9:11) at his second coming (Acts 1:6-7, 3:20-21), which will occur immediately after the tribulation (Mt. 24:29-31).

36"But the exact day and hour? No one knows that, not even heaven's angels, not even the Son. Only the Father knows."
thus says Jesus Christ!

Ronald · Feb 27, 2013

SharonL said:
SharonL said:

Excerpts from Calvaryprophecy.com

Click to expand...

Excellent post. I would agree with most of it with the exception of Dan.9:27, a third temple, since we are the temple of God. "Measure the temple" may be symbolic for those sealed in Christ. Ane then the identity of the Beast as the revised Roman Empire/EU is not in my view. But you have great scholars in that camp though.
"Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
(That I believe was the 70th week where Jesus did confirm a covenant and in the middle of the week was taken, beaten, then crucified.)
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
(His sacrifice brought an end to animal sacrifice and offering)
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.”
(Abominations always meant sinful acts. His stripes and crucifixion was for us a necessity but for the perpetrators, it was an abomination. On the wing of that "shall be" means "yet to come" one who makes desolate. Jerusalem was made desolate in 70 A.D. The consummation poured out on the desolate is the Holy Spirit poured out on Israel during the Great Tribulation period. (Rom.11:25, 26)
Just my take on it, could be wrong?

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Bible2

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Scripture is God's word, Science is God's works

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spreading the bible

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