predicting Christ's coming

Bethwhite said:

At one moment in time, after this great tribulation is cut short and prior to wrath, Jesus appears in the air and calls the church to Himself in heaven, where we will dwell with Him.

About 42 months later, Jesus comes on the clouds with the armies of heaven, including the immortal church, to destroy those who choose to worship the devil.

Click to expand...

So the church goes to heaven somewhere and then 42 months later comes back to earth??

OK, if that happens, it would definitely require physical bodies.

So how does Jesus destroy his enemies or enemies of Israel?

Hockey_Fan said:

So the church goes to heaven somewhere and then 42 months later comes back to earth??

OK, if that happens, it would definitely require physical bodies.

Click to expand...

Yes, the armies of heaven come to destroy and that includes people of the immortal church (likely the men, aged 20 or more).

So how does Jesus destroy his enemies or enemies of Israel?

Click to expand...

Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords.
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.






Rev 14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

That is kind of confusing. Does Jesus actually sit on a cloud? Or is that symbolic of something?

Hockey_Fan said:

That is kind of confusing. Does Jesus actually sit on a cloud? Or is that symbolic of something?

Click to expand...

I believe it's an actual cloud.

Acts 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.


Matt 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


Dan 7:13 "In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence.

Bethwhite said:

I believe it's an actual cloud.

Acts 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.


Matt 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


Dan 7:13 "In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence.

Click to expand...

Pretty amazing.

What do you think the "sharp sword" represents that the rider of the horse has?

Hockey_Fan said:

What do you think the "sharp sword" represents that the rider of the horse has?

Click to expand...

Destruction of the wicked.


Hbr 4:12 For the word of God [is] quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Hbr 4:13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things [are] naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.

Hockey_Fan said:

What do you think the "sharp sword" represents that the rider of the horse has?

Click to expand...

He is speaking. The two edged sword of the Spirit is the Word of God.


Ephesians 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit which is the WORD of God.

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Is it referring to some kind of judgment? In that illustration, it seemed like the sword was slaying people. So not sure what it represents.

Hockey_Fan said:

Is it referring to some kind of judgment? In that illustration, it seemed like the sword was slaying people. So not sure what it represents.

Click to expand...

It is the Word of God. We are told to put on the whole armour of God in Ephesians 6. The sword of the Spirit is the only offensive weapon we have. The word of God is mighty.

Related Topics:

• Word Of God,
• God's Word,
• Spiritual Warfare,
• Sword,
• Helmet

Sort by: Latest bookmarks | Latest comments
"Sword" in the Bible: Ephesians 6:17
The Word of God is described in a number of places as a sword--hard-hitting and effective, capable of piercing even the most resolute mental and spiritual defenses with its simple truth. If we're armed with God's Word, we have no need of any other "weapons"--it is our most effective tool against unbelief.
Ephesians 6:17 NIV - Take the helmet of salvation and the - Bible Gateway

Bethwhite said:

If I said that Jesus is coming on Monday and 2pm, then that's wrong because I've predicted a day and hour, which no man knows.

If I say I believe Christ will come in the next 0-2 years because of particular signs and what He told us to watch for, I'm being a watchman.

Click to expand...

I disagree. I think 'watching' was about character, not about special inside knowledge or crystal ball gazing. I just posted this in another thread, but as this thread seems more popular, here goes again.

1. WE ARE TOLD WE WILL NOT KNOW WHEN THE LORD WILL RETURN, SO WE SHOULD PATIENTLY STAY TRUSTING IN THE LORD FOR OUR DAY OF SALVATION.

Matthew 24 says:
"36 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away..... 42 “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 43 But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44 So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him."

THAT'S how we must 'be ready'. If we do not trust in the Lord then:
"The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. 51 He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
(This is salvation or damnation stuff, not a bit of knowledge about a timetable).

Luke 12:40
"You also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.”
It does NOT say "You must know in advance so that you can be ready." It says "Be ready BECAUSE you will not know!"


Revelation 3:3
"Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; hold it fast, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you."
(Remember the gospel and hold it fast and repent!!! Stay Christian, or you might get caught off guard! Becoming lazy and slack is 'falling asleep' right here. The irony is that futurists are the ones who obsess over and read Revelation the most, but miss this clear message):
Revelation 16:15
"Look, I come like a thief! Blessed are those who stay awake and keep their clothes on, so that they may not go naked and be shamefully exposed."
(It's not about knowing a date but staying clothed! Being prepared! Being in the gospel, not out of it. Being Christian. How sad it is that so many people spend so much time trying to nail Revelation to their timetables and chronologies when John says twice in this very book that Jesus will come like a thief!)

2. BIBLE SHOWS PEOPLE 'GUESSING' WRONGLY
Not only that, but guessing the date is bad because people mess it up!
2 Thessalonians 2:2 shows the heresy of full Preterism in action: they taught that the Lord had *already* returned. They messed it up!

3. 'FUTURE KNOWLEDGE' VERSES DO NOT STACK UP!
Some futurists argue that certain verses mean we must know. They point to verses like 1 Thessalonians 5:4
"But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief."
This verse is *not* saying Christians should know ahead of the event: that would clearly contradict all the verses we saw above. Instead it says we should not be *unprepared*, not caught in sin and out of faith.

4. WHAT GOOD IS KNOWING A DATE?
Why is knowing the date of the Lord's return even important? What are we meant to DO? How does knowing a date off in the future some time help us? How is trying to calculate that date not a distraction from our core gospel purpose? It doesn't actually help. We live busy lives, and I think our devotional reading could be far better spent in Biblical Theology and Systematic Theology and Apologetics and prayer than wasting endless hours trying to pin down some obscure date. A date many have guessed and published and failed and make a mockery of themselves and their Lord.

Knowing the date might even make some *relax* until then. Would knowing the date off in the future help some to flirt with a worldly lifestyle? To take it easy? In contrast, I can only see warnings against guessing the time of the Lord's return in the bible!

On the other hand, 'predicting' an early date to make your 'ministry' more urgent is the tactic of the JW's. It's ungodly and dishonest.


5. WHAT DOES 1 THESS 5:4 ACTUALLY ENCOURAGE US TO DO?
If one reads this in the context of Thessalonians 5:4 it's all about remaining Christian and staying true to the gospel, not having a vague stab at a date! What futurists have done is pluck the verse out of context to make it sound like a justification for all their pointless prognosticating. The sad irony is that from the context of this verse, Paul would have them concentrate on many other things instead! Like being loving, godly witnesses and staying true to the gospel. Let's read it in context.

1 Thess 5:4
"But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief. 5 You are all children of the light and children of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness. 6 So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be awake and sober. 7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, get drunk at night. 8 But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. 9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. 10 He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him. 11 Therefore encourage one another and build each other up, just as in fact you are doing."

I wish the futurists would read the whole chapter and not just isolate the one line that, at a superficial level, appears to itch their ears. It doesn't. If this were all about knowing a date it's a very strange way of talking about it. For example, how does someone "belong to" not knowing a date? "We do not belong to the night or to the darkness". Hang on... futurists want to say the fact that we "are not in darkness" is all about knowing a date. But the text seems to imply something more fundamental about who we are. We are not in darkness because we are ignorant of a date, but because we 'belong to it'. That's about our very salvation.

Instead, Paul urges the Thessalonians to live as faithful Christians, and have more faith, hope, and love. We are to remember that we are not going to suffer wrath whenever Christ returns like a thief. We are to live 'in the day' as Christians, not 'in the dark'.

There is also the matter of dead Christians in this passage! How can dead Christians stay awake and prepare themselves for the Lord's return? "He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him." Tell me, how much work can the dead put into preparing timetables to be ready for the Lord? The point is obvious. Thessalonians 5 is not saying knowing a date saves us, but knowing a *person*, the Lord Jesus Christ. Do we know when the Lord will return? That's irrelevant! Are we people who trust in the Lord Jesus? There's no more important question! It's all about the gospel!

Let us compare it to bus timetables. This passage is not telling us we have to know exactly when the bus will arrive, but rather that we need to carry our ticket on us all at all times precisely because we will NOT know with this trip! It's about living as faithful, hopeful, loving Christians, rather than argumentative Current Affairs experts busy pushing their own little theory about End Times timetables. I know which I'd rather be, and which will ultimately be more useful for the gospel!

6. HOW DO OTHER PARTS OF THE BIBLE USE NIGHT AND DAY, LIGHT AND DARK?
To finish our look at 1 Thess 5 we can see that the Apostle John also used 'light' and 'dark' to discuss those who knew the Lord and those who didn't.
John 1:
"Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it"

"9 The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God — 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God."

1 John:
"5 This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. 6 If we claim to have fellowship with him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live out the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin. 8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us."

1 John 2
"9 Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates a brother or sister is still in the darkness. 10 Anyone who loves their brother and sister lives in the light, and there is nothing in them to make them stumble. 11 But anyone who hates a brother or sister is in the darkness and walks around in the darkness. They do not know where they are going, because the darkness has blinded them."

Belonging to the light or darkness, night or day is *not* some awkward code-word for knowing a secret date! It's a matter of salvation itself, or character. It's about belonging to God or not belonging to Him, being in the Kingdom of God or being cursed. It's about character, and how we live and what we value. Jesus was clear that even HE did not know when he would return, let alone any of us!!! Which brings me to point 3.

eclipsenow said:

I disagree. I think 'watching' was about character, not about special inside knowledge or crystal ball gazing. I just posted this in another thread, but as this thread seems more popular, here goes again.

1. WE ARE TOLD WE WILL NOT KNOW WHEN THE LORD WILL RETURN, SO WE SHOULD PATIENTLY STAY TRUSTING IN THE LORD FOR OUR DAY OF SALVATION.

Matthew 24 says:
"36 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away..... 42 “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 43 But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44 So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him."

THAT'S how we must 'be ready'. If we do not trust in the Lord then:
"The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. 51 He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
(This is salvation or damnation stuff, not a bit of knowledge about a timetable).

Luke 12:40
"You also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.”
It does NOT say "You must know in advance so that you can be ready." It says "Be ready BECAUSE you will not know!"


Revelation 3:3
"Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; hold it fast, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you."
(Remember the gospel and hold it fast and repent!!! Stay Christian, or you might get caught off guard! Becoming lazy and slack is 'falling asleep' right here. The irony is that futurists are the ones who obsess over and read Revelation the most, but miss this clear message):
Revelation 16:15
"Look, I come like a thief! Blessed are those who stay awake and keep their clothes on, so that they may not go naked and be shamefully exposed."
(It's not about knowing a date but staying clothed! Being prepared! Being in the gospel, not out of it. Being Christian. How sad it is that so many people spend so much time trying to nail Revelation to their timetables and chronologies when John says twice in this very book that Jesus will come like a thief!)

2. BIBLE SHOWS PEOPLE 'GUESSING' WRONGLY
Not only that, but guessing the date is bad because people mess it up!
2 Thessalonians 2:2 shows the heresy of full Preterism in action: they taught that the Lord had *already* returned. They messed it up!

3. 'FUTURE KNOWLEDGE' VERSES DO NOT STACK UP!
Some futurists argue that certain verses mean we must know. They point to verses like 1 Thessalonians 5:4
"But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief."
This verse is *not* saying Christians should know ahead of the event: that would clearly contradict all the verses we saw above. Instead it says we should not be *unprepared*, not caught in sin and out of faith.

4. WHAT GOOD IS KNOWING A DATE?
Why is knowing the date of the Lord's return even important? What are we meant to DO? How does knowing a date off in the future some time help us? How is trying to calculate that date not a distraction from our core gospel purpose? It doesn't actually help. We live busy lives, and I think our devotional reading could be far better spent in Biblical Theology and Systematic Theology and Apologetics and prayer than wasting endless hours trying to pin down some obscure date. A date many have guessed and published and failed and make a mockery of themselves and their Lord.

Knowing the date might even make some *relax* until then. Would knowing the date off in the future help some to flirt with a worldly lifestyle? To take it easy? In contrast, I can only see warnings against guessing the time of the Lord's return in the bible!

On the other hand, 'predicting' an early date to make your 'ministry' more urgent is the tactic of the JW's. It's ungodly and dishonest.

Click to expand...

I agree that DATE setting is wrong. No man knows the DAY OR HOUR.

Saying that Jesus will come to destroy during some future Feast of Trumpets, after the devil's had his 42 months isn't DATE setting.

Saying that Jesus will appear for the church prior to the devil's 42 months isn't date setting either.

5. WHAT DOES 1 THESS 5:4 ACTUALLY ENCOURAGE US TO DO?
If one reads this in the context of Thessalonians 5:4 it's all about remaining Christian and staying true to the gospel, not having a vague stab at a date! What futurists have done is pluck the verse out of context to make it sound like a justification for all their pointless prognosticating. The sad irony is that from the context of this verse, Paul would have them concentrate on many other things instead! Like being loving, godly witnesses and staying true to the gospel. Let's read it in context.

1 Thess 5:4
"But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief. 5 You are all children of the light and children of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness. 6 So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be awake and sober. 7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, get drunk at night. 8 But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. 9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. 10 He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him. 11 Therefore encourage one another and build each other up, just as in fact you are doing."

I wish the futurists would read the whole chapter and not just isolate the one line that, at a superficial level, appears to itch their ears. It doesn't. If this were all about knowing a date it's a very strange way of talking about it. For example, how does someone "belong to" not knowing a date? "We do not belong to the night or to the darkness". Hang on... futurists want to say the fact that we "are not in darkness" is all about knowing a date. But the text seems to imply something more fundamental about who we are. We are not in darkness because we are ignorant of a date, but because we 'belong to it'. That's about our very salvation.

Instead, Paul urges the Thessalonians to live as faithful Christians, and have more faith, hope, and love. We are to remember that we are not going to suffer wrath whenever Christ returns like a thief. We are to live 'in the day' as Christians, not 'in the dark'.

Click to expand...

Yes, and we were given all manner of signs to watch for so that it won't surprise us, because we are enlightened by the Word of God.

There is also the matter of dead Christians in this passage! How can dead Christians stay awake and prepare themselves for the Lord's return? "He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him." Tell me, how much work can the dead put into preparing timetables to be ready for the Lord? The point is obvious. Thessalonians 5 is not saying knowing a date saves us, but knowing a *person*, the Lord Jesus Christ. Do we know when the Lord will return? That's irrelevant! Are we people who trust in the Lord Jesus? There's no more important question! It's all about the gospel!

Click to expand...

That particular part of 1 Thess 5, verses 9-10 are about the rapture of the church at the appearing of the Lord.


1 Thess 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

It's the same as this:

1 Thess 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Bethwhite said:

I agree that DATE setting is wrong. No man knows the DAY OR HOUR.

Saying that Jesus will come to destroy during some future Feast of Trumpets, after the devil's had his 42 months isn't DATE setting.

Saying that Jesus will appear for the church prior to the devil's 42 months isn't date setting either.

Yes, and we were given all manner of signs to watch for so that it won't surprise us, because we are enlightened by the Word of God.



That particular part of 1 Thess 5, verses 9-10 are about the rapture of the church at the appearing of the Lord.


1 Thess 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

It's the same as this:

1 Thess 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Click to expand...

There is no rapture, only the final day of Judgement where the dead are raised, the ungodly judged, sin, Satan, and death itself destroyed, and the New Heavens and New Earth installed. It's all the one event. Return = end of history. Done. Game over. God does not play 'hide and seek' in the 'rapture'! It's picture language for us being safe.

eclipsenow said:

There is no rapture, only the final day of Judgement where the dead are raised, the ungodly judged, sin, Satan, and death itself destroyed, and the New Heavens and New Earth installed. It's all the one event. Return = end of history. Done. Game over. God does not play 'hide and seek' in the 'rapture'! It's picture language for us being safe.

Click to expand...

And yet:

Psalm 50:1 The mighty God, even the Lord, hath spoken, and called the earth from the rising of the sun unto the going down thereof. 2 Out of Zion, the perfection of beauty, God hath shined.
3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.
4 He shall call to the heavens from above, and to the earth, that he may judge his people.
5 Gather my saints together unto me; those that have made a covenant with me by sacrifice.
6 And the heavens shall declare his righteousness: for God is judge himself.

1 Thess 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.






1 Thess 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.




Here we are dwelling in heaven after the rapture:



Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.






Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

ALLorNOTHINGatall4CHRIST said:

Since the Bible says no man shell know the date or the hour how much is acceptable when it comes to predicting His return? Is it OK to predict He come within your lifetime within the next 100 years or should we not try at all?

Click to expand...

The point of Christ's words is that it's not a puzzle to be solved, the date of Christ's return is not what we as Christians should be fixating on. We can always posture our lives in such a manner so that if Christ were to return in our lifetime then we would be found carrying on in the practices of the Church that was established by his apostles.

Christ could return ten seconds after I post this or he could return in another 10,000 years from now. Not only does he not know, but it's not for us to know either. The entire purpose of Christianity is to be proactive in the life of the church, not sitting on our rear ends trying to determine the date of his return as if it were some kind of Ottendorf cipher.

Our time and resources would be much better spent participating in the Holy Mysteries and pursuing Theosis.

Big Fudge said:

The point of Christ's words is that it's not a puzzle to be solved, the date of Christ's return is not what we as Christians should be fixating on. We can always posture our lives in such a manner so that if Christ were to return in our lifetime then we would be found carrying on in the practices of the Church that was established by his apostles.

Christ could return ten seconds after I post this or he could return in another 10,000 years from now. Not only does he not know, but it's not for us to know either. The entire purpose of Christianity is to be proactive in the life of the church, not sitting on our rear ends trying to determine the date of his return as if it were some kind of Ottendorf cipher.

Our time and resources would be much better spent participating in the Holy Mysteries and pursuing Theosis.

Click to expand...

Pro 25:2 [It is] the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings [is] to search out a matter.

God has written everything in His Word. He has told us the end from the beginning.

Bethwhite said:

Pro 25:2 [It is] the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings [is] to search out a matter.

God has written everything in His Word. He has told us the end from the beginning.

Click to expand...

That Proverb does not tell Christians that they need to decipher when Christ will return, it's absolutely mad to believe otherwise.

All too often Evangelical Christians sacrifice time spent practicing their faith in order to immerse themselves in absolute eschatological rubbish. It's a very disturbing and saddening thing.

Bethwhite said:

And yet:

Psalm 50:1 The mighty God, even the Lord, hath spoken, and called the earth from the rising of the sun unto the going down thereof. 2 Out of Zion, the perfection of beauty, God hath shined.
3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.
4 He shall call to the heavens from above, and to the earth, that he may judge his people.
5 Gather my saints together unto me; those that have made a covenant with me by sacrifice.
6 And the heavens shall declare his righteousness: for God is judge himself.

Click to expand...

This agrees perfectly with my theology, which is that when the Lord comes is not a 'secret rapture' but is instead 'very tempestuous round about him'. It's Judgement Day. God gathers us 'up' in similar imagery to Noah being gathered 'up', that is, away from judgement. (Down on the ground). Jesus uses this imagery when he speaks of his judgement.

Here's my usual piece that demonstrates it is all the one day. Whatever it actually LOOKS like, it all happens on the one day.

Regards to all your bible reading!

Covenant Amils see 'Judgement Day' as this one, huge, inescapable and instantaneous day. From the explicitly clear statements in the New Testament about the Last Day we know that when Jesus returns, the dead are raised, all is revealed and judged, and sin, Satan, and death are done away with. Heaven meets earth in a glorious new reality where we will exist in perfect harmony with our Lord for all eternity! There's just no room for a "half eternal, half mortal" merely geopolitical reign of Jesus on earth. The language around the Lord's return is too dramatic and final for that.

1: BOTH BELIEVERS AND UNBELIEVERS ARE RAISED TOGETHER ON THE LAST DAY AND THEN SAVED OR JUDGED!
(not 1000 years apart)
John 6:39 = Christians are raised for eternal life on the LAST DAY. Not 1007 years before the last day: not before some 7 year 'tribulation' and 1000 year "Millennium". We are raised on THE LAST DAY!
John 11:24 = Martha knows Lazarus will rise on the LAST DAY
John 12:48 = Jesus Judges on the LAST DAY
John 5:28 = All raised together for either salvation or judgement
Luke 17:24-28 = Jesus return will be OBVIOUS and inescapable: like lightning across the sky. Will be like days of Noah, when they were either taken and saved or left behind and DESTROYED.
Or like Lot, who were either saved or DESTROYED. In none of these examples were those 'Left Behind' able to continue their lives for 7 years! They were judged immediately. Noah didn't enter the ark and then 1000 years passed before the flood!
Matt 25:31-46 = the sorting of the sheep and the goats.
Matt 13:24-29 = weeds judged and burned and wheat saved.
1 Thess 4:13-17 = Christians are raised and saved forever.
1 Thess 5 = the ungodly are immediately judged!
2 Tim 4:1 = judge the living and the dead
Acts 17:31 = Jesus resurrection is PROOF that He will be the judge. (Because, I take it, resurrection demonstrates God's power over death and also precedes the final judgement!)
Psalm 2: his judgement will be sudden and will destroy all God's enemies
Matt: 16:27 = "For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done."


2. SATAN AND HIS MINIONS ALSO JUDGED
Rev 20:10 = at the end of this age the Devil is destroyed.
(Millennium = Symobolic of the perfect amount of time between the gospel events of Jesus incarnation and Jesus return as judge).

3. DEATH BANISHED, ETERNITY USHERED IN
As we have already seen above we are raised and then Judged to be innocent in Christ or damned forever. Then we are eternal beings!
Mark 10:30 = "in the age to come eternal life."
1 Cor 15:26 = "The last enemy to be destroyed is death".

4. DAY OF LORD = NEW HEAVENS AND NEW EARTH
2 Peter 3:10-13 = DAY OF LORD = like a thief = "a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells."

5. THIS *REALLY* MESSES WITH MILLENNIAL IDEAS - THERE IS NO NEED OF MARRIAGE OR BABIES!
Luke 20:35: "But those who are considered worthy of taking part in the age to come and in the resurrection of the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage,"
The Millennium cannot have both immortal resurrected Christians living alongside mortal sinners because:
* access to the age to come is via resurrection
* even if we 'smuggled them in' (so to speak) after a generation there would be no more mortals because there are no babies!

6. MORTAL BEINGS CANNOT ENTER THE 'ARRIVED' KINGDOM OF GOD!
(This is in contrast to the 'current' kingdom of God, the church, which is a spiritual kingdom 'not of this world'. When the kingdom actually arrives physically, mortality is put behind us).
1 Corinthians 15
"50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”
* This means resurrection = changed into our immortal bodies = Death conquered at the SAME TIME as the Lord's return.

So what to do with the Millennium, and indeed, the whole book of Revelation?

My first recommendation would be Revelation Unwrapped by John Richardson. This is available from bookdepository.co.uk quite cheap, and is a short, clear book taking the Symbolist approach to Revelation. That is, unlike modern 'futurists', Revelation is full of biblical symbols and is not dependent on modern newspaper headlines and geopolitics to understand. It's all about the gospel, and is a cracker of a sermon encouraging all Christians in all ages that have ever had to live under suffering.

The next book I recommend is 'Apocalypse Now and then' by Dr Paul Barnett, which is a bit partial preterist and a bit Symbolist.
Apocalypse now and then: reading Revelation today: Amazon.co.uk: Books
Paul Barnett sees some things like the beasts of Revelation as being historical Roman Emperors, but again I'm a little reluctant to believe the book is only understandable with a Phd in History! But he is very helpful in most chapters and does interpret a lot of the bible's Symbolism.

Or if you don't have the time buy and read these books, try the free sermons at Sydney Anglicans. The following link has sermons listed by book of the bible. Scan down to the end and download the sermons. You'll be amazed at the consistency of reading Revelation with the REST of the New Testament!
Synod 2012 Bible Study Four | Audio | Sydneyanglicans.net

Or if you REALLY want to go deep, check out the free audio lectures by Dr Kim Riddlebarger. There's probably about 30 hours of material entitled "Amillennialism 101" on the down the right hand column here.
Riddleblog - The Latest Post

Well, to those who believe we will be gathered in the rapture, but, differ as to when, What all of us have in common is we believe we will be gathered in a rapture to meet the Lord in the air. I think, after reading all the posts on this subject, that we are closer in thought about it than we think. The discussion is very edifying for me, and I want to thank all of you for your contributions.

eclipsenow said:

This agrees perfectly with my theology, which is that when the Lord comes is not a 'secret rapture' but is instead 'very tempestuous round about him'. It's Judgement Day. God gathers us 'up' in similar imagery to Noah being gathered 'up', that is, away from judgement. (Down on the ground). Jesus uses this imagery when he speaks of his judgement.

Here's my usual piece that demonstrates it is all the one day. Whatever it actually LOOKS like, it all happens on the one day.

Regards to all your bible reading!

Click to expand...

Here is the raptured, immortal church, dwelling in heaven, when the devil, who has been accusing Christians before God day and night (for the last 2000 years), is cast down to the earth for his "short time" (about 42 months) before Christ comes to destroy the wicked:

Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.