Predetermined?!

loveunseen3 · Apr 4, 2003

This is something to mull over in your head... food for thought!
I will start of by stating fact and intertwine it with propability.
God is all knowing, all loving, all good. He created man in his image and to serve his WILL. This obviously is the basis of pre-destination, but I want to take it a step further. Since God is God his will for mankind is perfect in every way, and will be carried out despite the intentions and follies of men.
Now here is a question, If you sin are you carrying out God's will? Futhermore if you read the bible it states that a righteous man's third generation of children will be blessed. Since your fate is pre-determined you are seen as a man of God based on what God knows you will do? These are rather confusing but challenging thoughts that whether they sound judgemental or not are a way to show the fraility of our minds and the greatness of God and his will.

Grace_Alone4gives · Apr 5, 2003

Great question...looking forward to seeing what people feel.
I dont know how to answer the majority of your post without doing some study as God requires. However, I feel I am correct in believing that sinning is NOT carrying out God's will in your life. God's Will will be done, regardless of sin, however, the Bible clearly states that sin is not the will of God. HTH

Victoria

Singleman · Apr 5, 2003

It's a complex question. God can use sin to further His purposes, but sin never pleases Him, and He is not directly responsible for anyone's sin. A good example is the Crucifixion. God ordained that Jesus would die on the cross (He did not simply foresee it, Acts 4:27-28), but those who carried it out were not forced to commit a sin against their will. A better case can be made that good deeds are predetermined (Ephesians 2:10). The relationship between divine sovereignty and human responsibility is one that cannot be fully explained.

Loxly · Apr 14, 2003

   I know what you mean loveunseen3, I just posted something simmiler a few minutes ago and I can not accept that anything is predetermined, If you accept that all things are pre-determined then you accept the gods will was to create Evil, since he Created Lucifer and He knew what Satan would do before he created him.

Thats Why I Can't believe in Pre-desination Or Gods Complete Omnisciense.

Reformationist · Apr 15, 2003

Today at 11:07 AM Loxly said this in Post #4 

  If you accept that all things are pre-determined then you accept the gods will was to create Evil, since he Created Lucifer and He knew what Satan would do before he created him.

Isaiah 45:6
That they may know from the rising of the sun to its setting
        That there is none besides Me.
        I am the LORD, and there is no other; 
       <SUP> </SUP>I form the light and create darkness,
        I make peace and create calamity;
        I, the LORD, do all these things.'

Isaiah 54:16
       <SUP> </SUP>"Behold, I have created the blacksmith
        Who blows the coals in the fire,
        Who brings forth an instrument for his work;
        And I have created the spoiler to destroy.

Revelation 4:11
"You are worthy, O Lord, 
        To receive glory and honor and power;
        For You created ALL things,
        And by Your will they exist and were created."

That help at all?

God bless

Loxly · Apr 15, 2003

Good examples there, Thanks

pcmixoye · Apr 15, 2003

This is a difficult and mindbending subject: one that has been wrestled with from the start. Just read Job. Somethings are just not ment to be grasped with the intellect. " I have heard of thee with the hearing of my ear but now my eye seeth thee." Job

 Since Reformationist stole my favorite verses I will simply give a few thoughts.
God in his sovereinity gave man a freewill. and
The Greek word translated preordained is prohorizoo from where we get our word horizon and basically means to set a boundary. That boundary is Jesus Christ and all who recieve him in faith.
The problem of evil and God's relationship to it is for others to speak of; I'm all ears.

God Bless, Pete

Reformationist · Apr 15, 2003

Today at 10:29 AM pcmixoye said this in Post #7

Just read Job. Somethings are just not ment to be grasped with the intellect. " I have heard of thee with the hearing of my ear but now my eye seeth thee." Job

This symbolism was significant because it was a way in which people of that time would differentiate between knowing of someone/knowing someone and having an intimate relationship with them.  Job, whom was called the holiest person on earth at the time by God, realized later that he had not really comprehended the majesty and sovereignty of the God he professed to worship.  That statement was Job's way of saying, "Now I truly know you."

God in his sovereinity gave man a freewill.

The phrase "free will" has been used so many times in so many ways that it causes more confusion than any other, IMO.  God, in His sovereignty, gave man the ability to make rational decisions.  At the time of man's creation he was not hindered by sin.  He did not have a fallen nature.  His desires were in perfect accordance to the Will of the Father.  He did have the ability to disobey, as do post Fall man.  However, he also had the ability to righteously obey, which is not something that fallen man could do.  It went against his very nature.  After a person is regenerated he is returned, at least somewhat, to a pre-Fall state.  The obvious difference between Adam and regenerate man is that regenerate man still has a old, fallen, deceitful nature that battles with his new, righteous, holy nature.

The problem of evil and God's relationship to it is for others to speak of; I'm all ears.

The biggest problem I see on this note is that people limit God to the point of believing that God can't be around evil without being affected by it.  As if God were some weak creation.  God created evil and uses it to sanctify His chosen.  Everything is a tool to God.  Before it gets assumed, let me clarify that I am not saying that God tempts us to sin.  I'm not. 

God Bless

pcmixoye · Apr 15, 2003

Amen, thanks. the problem I've seen with the people I talk to is that they can't reconcile a good God with an apparently evil act.

God Bless. Pete

pcmixoye · Apr 16, 2003

One last shot: a revision, God in his sovreinity gave man a choice, life or death. Is that a little clearer?

God Bless, Pete

Reformationist · Apr 16, 2003

Today at 10:10 AM pcmixoye said this in Post #10

One last shot: a revision, God in his sovreinity gave man a choice, life or death. Is that a little clearer?

God Bless, Pete

Just so I'm clear, is there some Scripture that has led you to the conclusion that God gave unregenerate man the responsibility to choose between life and death?  I certainly hope it is not Deuteronomy 30:19 that has made you believe this.

God bless

Loxly · Apr 16, 2003

Yesterday at 07:06 PM Reformationist said this in Post #8 The biggest problem I see on this note is that people limit God to the point of believing that God can't be around evil without being affected by it.  As if God were some weak creation.  God created evil and uses it to sanctify His chosen.  Everything is a tool to God.  Before it gets assumed, let me clarify that I am not saying that God tempts us to sin.  I'm not.

  

God does not " tempt" Us he "tests" Us

 I myself am coming to the conclusion that, my proplem with this is that i keep thinking that, If god gave me logic and reason then I should use it to understand him. and in truth, when it comes to the subject of predestination and "free Will" I personaly can not Fathom the wisdom of god I can only follow it. And with that Logic and reason can only carry you so far. To trust in him when logic and reason dictate otherwise , Now that! is a child of god :clap:

pcmixoye · Apr 16, 2003

No, i wasn't even thinking of that verse, I was thinking generally thru scripture starting with the choice God gave Adam and Eve in the Garden: that of obedience/disobedience, then Noah, Abraham, Moses, Isreal, they all individually and corperatly had the same choice. On into the New Testament where the choice is Believing Jesus and what he has done for us or going our own way. I was merely trying to clarify the quote from what you had said in your post about freewill.

God Bless, Pete

rnmomof7 · Apr 16, 2003

4th April 2003 at 09:51 PM loveunseen3 said this in Post #1

This is something to mull over in your head... food for thought!
I will start of by stating fact and intertwine it with propability.
God is all knowing, all loving, all good. He created man in his image and to serve his WILL. This obviously is the basis of pre-destination, but I want to take it a step further. Since God is God his will for mankind is perfect in every way, and will be carried out despite the intentions and follies of men.
Now here is a question, If you sin are you carrying out God's will? Futhermore if you read the bible it states that a righteous man's third generation of children will be blessed. Since your fate is pre-determined you are seen as a man of God based on what God knows you will do? These are rather confusing but challenging thoughts that whether they sound judgemental or not are a way to show the fraility of our minds and the greatness of God and his will.

God is not the author of sin. He hates sin .

But we know that nothing happens outside of His will. He ordains all things.

How can both things be true?

We know that ALL things work together for the good for those that love God and are called according to His purposes.

We see that at work very clearly in the story of Joseph (his brothers sin was a part of Gods plan) and in the betrayl of Jesus.

All of our choices are a result of our preferences..our preferences are ordained of God .

God knew that Judas was greedy for money and power because he had been so made. For all of the life of Judaas God had restrained them in Judas..BUT when the time came for the foreordained plan of God to come into its fullness..God removed His hand and Judas was free to do just as He willed. It was fully his choice , it was fully his will, and he was fully responsible but it was God ordained.

Because God created each of us he knows exactly how we will react to a given situation..He ordains the situation and we choose to act , fully free yet fully forordained actions..

rnmomof7 · Apr 16, 2003

14th April 2003 at 02:07 PM Loxly said this in Post #4

   I know what you mean loveunseen3, I just posted something simmiler a few minutes ago and I can not accept that anything is predetermined, If you accept that all things are pre-determined then you accept the gods will was to create Evil, since he Created Lucifer and He knew what Satan would do before he created him.

Thats Why I Can't believe in Pre-desination Or Gods Complete Omnisciense.

Do you deny prophecy in the bible?

Reformationist · Apr 17, 2003

Yesterday at 02:22 PM rnmomof7 said this in Post #14

God is not the author of sin. He hates sin .

But we know that nothing happens outside of His will. He ordains all things.

How can both things be true?

We know that ALL things work together for the good for those that love God and are called according to His purposes.

We see that at work very clearly in the story of Joseph (his brothers sin was a part of Gods plan) and in the betrayl of Jesus.

All of our choices are a result of our preferences..our preferences are ordained of God .

God knew that Judas was greedy for money and power because he had been so made. For all of the life of Judaas God had restrained them in Judas..BUT when the time came for the foreordained plan of God to come into its fullness..God removed His hand and Judas was free to do just as He willed. It was fully his choice , it was fully his will, and he was fully responsible but it was God ordained.

Because God created each of us he knows exactly how we will react to a given situation..He ordains the situation and we choose to act , fully free yet fully forordained actions..

That was a wonderful explanation of something that is often difficult to understand.  Thank you for that.

God bless,

Don

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