Predestined

[Evee]

After much study and thinking and going through my thoughts of God over the years of believing in him.

 I now believe we are predestined.

 I was having a hard time with this but everyone has a chance to believe but not everyone will.

 What do you think of predestiny?

 Many Christians say they don't believe in it which I didn't either.

Yet we say it was meant to be or it wouldn't have been.

 Or people say what is going to happen will happen that is predestiny in my oppinion where we believe in it or not.

 So another change of thinking for me what about you?

Do you believe we are predestined?

 Evee

 

[wolfling03]

Pre-destinaton versus free will has always been a touchy subject for Christians and non-christians alike. The bible says that there are vessels for noble use and ignoble use. So if we are designed for ignoble use how can God punish us if we are only doing what we were designed to do. Since we are accountable for our sins then it stands to rason that we must have a way to avoid them or a way to atone for them. Thus giving us the free will to continue in sin or to choose not to.

My personal belief is that to God who stands outside of time all things are predestined but to us that must experiance time in a linear fashion it has the appearence of free will. It is very easy to use the concept of predestination to avoid the responibilty for our actions.

 

[Gabriel]

I believe we are. Just read my signature and you'll see. Most of my life I was told that people are only predestined because God looked down through time and saw that we would believe, so he predestined us. That seems a bit silly doesn't it? I mean it leaves God's decision in our hands.

You will get some pretty unpopular responses to this thread, I assure you. I will address them as they come rather than spend a half our spouting my theological POV.

I will leave you with this from Ephesians 1: 5having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He has made us accepted in the Beloved.
That doesn't sound like He reacted to our decision does it?

Praise God for your revelation! Doesn't it make your salvation so much more special knowing that a Holy God chose you!?

 

[Evee]

I kinda think like that also, but there is a couple of issues I need to check on.

 I just came up with this truth as I see it recently. I am not adjusted to it yet. Evee

 

[FOMWatts<><]

Most people don;t agree with it because they do not understand it. If thought is put into it, the definition comes out being, in my opinion, that we can not surprise God and God knew befroe hand what we would choose. He made us and knows us that well. It is pretty simple! Doesn't really effect salvation though, Thank God!

FOMWatts <><

 

[Gabriel]

Originally posted by Evee
I kinda think like that also, but there is a couple of issues I need to check on.

&nbsp;I just came up with this truth as I see it recently.&nbsp;I am not adjusted to it yet. Evee

This is one of the core doctrines of my denomination. I have studied it in depth. If you have any questions, feel free to ask.

By the way, I wasn't swayed to this belief by my denomination, I was brought to this denomination because of this truth.

This may be a helpful link: http://www.opc.org/what_is/Reformed_Part1.html#P1-2b



Grace to you.

 

[Evee]

I believe we are predestined just finally came to that decision. I still believe we have free will to a point. Do you believe in losing your salvation?&nbsp; Evee

 

[Gabriel]

Originally posted by Evee
I believe we are predestined just finally came to that decision. I still believe we have free will to a point. Do you believe in losing your salvation?&nbsp; Evee

I believe that you cannot lose your salvation. I believe it not because it makes me feel good (although it does), but because the bible tells us that if we belong to Him we will not perish:

27“My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28“And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29“My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30“I and My Father are one.”

Additionally, let's just look at it logically. If we are chosen by Him. If He has adopted us into His kingdom, how can that be anything bu eternal. Can God lose something He wants to save? I don't think so. We are adopted, we are His children, we cannot be lost.

I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours. 10“And all Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine, and I am glorified in them. 11“Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are. 12“While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. 13“But now I come to You, and these things I speak in the world, that they may have My joy fulfilled in themselves. 14“I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 15“I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one.

 

[Elan]

Originally posted by Evee
After much study and thinking and going through my thoughts of God over the years of believing in him.

&nbsp;I now believe we are predestined.

&nbsp;I was having a hard time with this but everyone has a chance to believe but not everyone will.

&nbsp;What do you think of predestiny?

&nbsp;Many Christians say they don't believe in it which I didn't either.

Yet we say it was meant to be or it wouldn't have been.

&nbsp;Or people say what is going to happen will happen that is predestiny in my oppinion where we believe in it or not.

&nbsp;So another change of thinking for me what about you?

Do you believe we are predestined?

&nbsp;Evee

Evee,

We are definitely predestined to be conformed to His image according to Roman 8.

Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good for those who love God, who are called according to his purpose,
8:29 because those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that his Son would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.
8:30 And those he predestined, he also called; and those he called, he also justified; and those he justified, he also glorified.

Those that He has predestined will most assuredly arrive at His image, in time.&nbsp; He will not fail.&nbsp; He will accomplish this work for His own good pleasure.

Phil 2:12 So then, my dear friends, just as you have always obeyed, not only in my presence but even more in my absence, continue working out your salvation with awe and reverence,
2:13 for the one bringing forth in you both the desire and the effort—for the sake of his good pleasure—is God.

We are to be enJOYing the good work that He is accomplishing in&nbsp;us.&nbsp; Much peace to you in your sojourn.&nbsp;

Elan&nbsp;&nbsp;

P.S. The notion that we are predestined “to heaven” or “to hell” will be difficult to support from scripture.

 

[Andrew]

The Bible says we are predestined to be saved and to finally conform to the image of Christ.

So predestination is about that. It does not mean you are predestined to wear this pink shirt today, predestined to watch this movie at this theatre and this time, pre-destined to marry Mr X etc. ie fated for this or that. We walk by faith, not fate.

So let's keep it within the confines of the Bible's definition.

 

[Evee]

Thank you everyone for your answers.

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Evee

 

[sierraf]

I believe that what was known to God before the "foundation of the world" and what was "predestined" was God's plan of salvation for mankind.

The plan and what is necessary for us to participate in God's plan of salvation is outlined for us in the scriptures. We have freewill to accept and participate.

 

[Gabriel]

OK, but at the risk of confusing others, it would be wise and prudent to study this at great length before you post your beliefs on the matter. This is no small subject and the bible if full of reference to individual election by God.

 

[sierraf]

Hmm.... "election by God" are you speaking with reference that God requires nothing on my part to be saved? If so why then did the Philippian jailer in Acts 16 vs. 16-34 have to ask "what must I do to be saved?" even more to the question why was he given an answer?

 

[Gabriel]

I will be happy to lay it all on the line. If you are really looking for an explanation as to why I believe what I believe and not just trying to argue, please be so kind as to take some time, read these words and look up the scripture references that go along with it.

Election is the gracious and free act of God by which He calls those who become part of His kingdom and special beneficiaries of His love and blessings. The Bible describes the concept of election in three distinct ways. Election sometimes refers to the choice of Israel and the church as a people for special service and privileges. Election may also refer to the choice of a specific individual to some office or to perform some special service. Still other passages of the Bible refer to the election of individuals to be children of God and heirs of eternal life.
Throughout the history of redemption, election has characterized God’s saving activity. He chose and called Abraham from Ur to Canaan, making an everlasting covenant with him and his offspring (Gen. 11:31–12:7; Neh. 9:7; Is. 41:8). God also called Moses to lead His people out of bondage (Ex. 2:24–3:10; Deut. 6:21–23; Ps. 105). He chose Israel from among the nations of the world to be His special covenant people (Deut. 4:37; 7:6–7; Is. 44:1–2).
Election to salvation takes place “in Christ” (Eph. 1:4; 2:10) as a part of God’s purpose for the human race. As part of His eternal plan, God allows us to use our freedom to rebel against Him. Thus it is gracious of God to save those who find salvation through Jesus Christ. It is not unjust of Him not to save everyone, since no one deserves to be saved (Matt. 20:14; Rom. 1:18; 9:15). Election is gracious; it is also unconditional and unmerited (Acts 13:48; Rom. 9:11; 1 Pet. 1:2). It is an expression of the eternal, sovereign will of God who cannot change (Rom. 8:29; 2 Thess. 2:13). Therefore the salvation of the elect is certain (Rom. 8:28, 33).
Election is a necessary condition for salvation; faith is the sufficient condition. The elect inevitably believe, but they do not believe against their will. They have a God-given desire and ability to trust in Christ for salvation (Acts 13:48; 1 Cor. 15:10; Phil. 1:29; 2:13). The elect choose God because He effectively calls them through the proclamation of the gospel of Jesus Christ; they choose Him because He first chose and called them to Himself (Rom. 8:28). That initiating love of God is reflected in Jesus’ statement, “You did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16).
A careful study of the Bible’s doctrine of man cures any romantic notion of a human will that is free to choose for or against God. Those who are slaves to sin and its power (Rom. 6:6) neither understand nor seek after God in and of themselves (Rom. 3:11; John 14:17; 1 Cor. 2:14). Outside of Christ, people are spiritually dead rebels who neither desire to submit to the Lord Jesus Christ nor are able to. Apart from God’s gracious, free, eternal, and sovereign choice of sinners to become His children, none would be saved but would remain forever under His wrath (Rom. 1:18).
Election is not to be a source of complacency (2 Pet. 1:12) or presumption (Rom. 11:19–22) on the part of Christians. They are to make their calling and election certain by growing in godliness (2 Pet. 1:2–11) as they respond with gratitude to God’s electing love (Col. 3:12–17).
God has chosen Christians to bear the image and glory of Christ (Rom. 8:29; 2 Thess. 2:14). They have been elected to be holy in conduct, like Christ (Eph. 1:4). Like Him, they are also to be glorified in their whole being in the life to come (2 Cor. 3:18; Phil. 3:21). The ultimate goal of our election is that we might bring praise and glory to God (Eph. 1:6; Rom. 11:33; 2 Thess. 2:13).

 

[FluviusNeckar]

Originally posted by sierraf
I believe that what was known to God before the "foundation of the world" and what was "predestined" was God's plan of salvation for mankind.

The plan and what is necessary for us to participate in God's plan of salvation is outlined for us in the scriptures. We have freewill to accept and participate.

Great insight. Jesus is the mystery kept secret from the foundation of the world and the plan which predates Adam was what was pre-destined. Paul used "predestined" to refute the critics of Jesus who said, "Where did this salvation come from all of a sudden. We have Moses but this Jesus, we have no mention of His salvation in our Bible."

 

[FluviusNeckar]

Gabriel writes,

"[Election] . . . is an expression of the eternal, sovereign will of God who cannot change (Rom. 8:29; 2 Thess. 2:13). Therefore the salvation of the elect is certain (Rom. 8:28, 33)."

To which, one might add that no one could refute such a definitional statement. The elect are elected. The saved are saved. I would like to note, however, that a non seguitur has inserted itself at this point. God, who cannot change, can change his mind. Moses and Abraham convinced God to change His mind. Thus salvation itself is what is certain as is election itself. It remains an as yet unsupported premise that this certaintly extends to a specific "irresistably elected" individual as Gabriel will later argue.


Gabriel continues,

"Election is a necessary condition for salvation; faith is the sufficient condition. The elect inevitably believe, but they do not believe against their will. They have a God-given desire and ability to trust in Christ for salvation (Acts 13:48; 1 Cor. 15:10; Phil. 1:29; 2:13). The elect choose God because He effectively calls them through the proclamation of the gospel of Jesus Christ; they choose Him because He first chose and called them to Himself (Rom. 8:28). That initiating love of God is reflected in Jesus’ statement, “You did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16)."

Jesus' own disciples misunderstood His words so it should surprise no one that Calvin, 1600 years later and Gabriel 2000 years later would do the same.

God said to Israel, "Come, let us reason together." Why would God reason with the elect (Israel) if His irresistable will were going to overpower them anyway. Why would He concur with the wills of Moses and Abraham, if Moses and Aaron don't really have a will of their own. The response to these questions becomes so extensive that Occam's razor applies---irresistable will is too complex an explanation for the scriptures. Granting man the will God granted him explains the scriptures much more simply than Calvin's intellectualizations.


Gabriel continues,

"A careful study of the Bible’s doctrine of man cures any romantic notion of a human will that is free to choose for or against God."

We have reason to become concerned about a theory of salvation that requires "careful study" (read agreement with my "romantic" position) when the plan of salvation is clear, plain and simple enough that anyone can understand it and respond. In the Scriptures, salvation is written as with a broad brush against the canvas of the heavens. If it took an advanced degree in theology to understand it, as it does to understand Calvin, then God could not have meant for "all men to be saved."

Jesus is the friend of sinners not theologians.

 

[auswiq]

Originally posted by Gabriel
I believe that you cannot lose your salvation. I believe it not because it makes me feel good (although it does), but because the bible tells us that if we belong to Him we will not perish:&nbsp;

..and dont forget the other side of the Coin ...

The Bible also says in Heb 10:26 that if WE sin wilfully after receiving the knowledge of the Truth; then there is no more sacrifice for sin, but fearful looking for of judgement...

receiving - Gk labein-to take hold of

knowledge " epignosin- understand; acknowledge&nbsp;(only possible through Holy Spirit) [No one can call Him Lord, but by the Holy Spirit]

and ..Heb 6:4-6 It is impossible for those once enlightened....if they shall fall away..to be renewed to repentence, they are crucifying to themselves the Son of God...

Romans 11:22 ...if you(and me)CONTINUE in His Goodness; otherwise you(and me)&nbsp;also shall be cut off.

John 15:6 If a man abide (Gk menein - dwell; remain) NOT in Me, he is cast forth as a branch and is withered (Gk xeraino-to parch; dry up) and they are gathered and burned.

Sure, we are well and truly saved AS LONG as we choose to meet His conditions with His sovereign enabling, of course. In other words, His Divine keeping in conjunction with our daily choice to dwell in Him.

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[Stormy]

I know that without God working within me I would not be the person that I am striving to become. I do not remember a time when I did not believe in God. My Faith has only grown stronger. I did not willfully choose him. He has instead always been a part of my soul.

But I will not exclude the possibility that there are others, who do come to the realization of God through their own searching for the truth. Neither will I eliminate the possibility that God hears their pleas and grants them the Gift of Faith.

Grace is in the Hands of God. He will dispense it as he see fit. But no one is lost who desires to be saved. Come to Jesus where you can be made new.

God is both loving and merciful.

 

[auswiq]

[God is both loving and merciful. [/B]

True indeed - and also HOLY and JUST in His Standards, required of us (including me - awesome responsibility on our part).

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