Predestination

[fieldmouse3]

I'd like to know everyone's thoughts on this subject. Does God plan out every little detail of our lives from the beginning, or do we have the power to change things because of our free will, or our lack of desire to listen to Him when he's telling us things? Have fun discussing.

 

[Jerry_M]

The Bible is quite clear:

1) God is sovereign over His universe, and His will is never thwarted.

2) Man is a free moral agent, and is responsible for his actions.

Yet, all the free-will in the world will not solve the following problem: Will a man do that which he never wants to do? Will a man repent if he doesn't consider himself to be a sinner, or believes that he can somehow save himself? Since sin made man spiritually dead, he will never choose life.

That is why God, in the providence of His grace, chose from the whole of sinful humanity a people for His own possession, and gave them new hearts that want to obey Him (i.e. the new birth). Without this, no sinful man would ever come to Christ.

 

[FOMWatts<><]

Psalm 139


For the director of music. Of David. A psalm.

1 O LORD , you have searched me
and you know me.
2 You know when I sit and when I rise;
you perceive my thoughts from afar.
3 You discern my going out and my lying down;
you are familiar with all my ways.
4 Before a word is on my tongue
you know it completely, O LORD .

5 You hem me in-behind and before;
you have laid your hand upon me.
6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me,
too lofty for me to attain.

7 Where can I go from your Spirit?
Where can I flee from your presence?
8 If I go up to the heavens, you are there;
if I make my bed in the depths, [1] you are there.
9 If I rise on the wings of the dawn,
if I settle on the far side of the sea,
10 even there your hand will guide me,
your right hand will hold me fast.

11 If I say, "Surely the darkness will hide me
and the light become night around me,"
12 even the darkness will not be dark to you;
the night will shine like the day,
for darkness is as light to you.

13 For you created my inmost being;
you knit me together in my mother's womb.
14 I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
your works are wonderful,
I know that full well.
15 My frame was not hidden from you
when I was made in the secret place.
When I was woven together in the depths of the earth,
16 your eyes saw my unformed body.
All the days ordained for me
were written in your book
before one of them came to be.

 

[Allen2]

Before Augustine came on the scene, the church for its 1st 3 centuries believed that we have free will, that faith is not an irresistible gift. Augustine, influenced by his Platonic philosophy, developed the deterministic novelty that God plans everything and His will is never thwarted.
I believe that God sets down the boundaries and the final destination, but that within those boundaries he has given us limited tho genuine freedom to effect history. He actually interacts with us on a personal level and creatively moves His plans forward even using our decisions or working around them. If that sounds shaky, we ARE describing how the Almighty interacts with humans and we will all stutter doing so, Al

 

[Jerry_M]

Before Augustine came on the scene, the church for its 1st 3 centuries believed that we have free will, that faith is not an irresistible gift. Augustine, influenced by his Platonic philosophy, developed the deterministic novelty that God plans everything and His will is never thwarted.
I believe that God sets down the boundaries and the final destination, but that within those boundaries he has given us limited tho genuine freedom to effect history. He actually interacts with us on a personal level and creatively moves His plans forward even using our decisions or working around them. If that sounds shaky, we ARE describing how the Almighty interacts with humans and we will all stutter doing so, Al

Even if we grant that your understanding of church history is correct (which I don't), you are incorrect in assuming tha Calvinists do not believe that men are free moral agents, and exerciese free-will (see my earlier post).

However, what good is a free-will that never wants to obey God?

Additionally, recognize that God knows exactly what "hot buttons" to push to bring about His desired results in the decisions of His elect.

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

please turn to your bibles
gen 6:5
gen 8:21
Romans 3:10-11
1cor 2:10 need HS to convict you


one example from scripture

roman 1:19-32 what man reason in his mind without God