Predestination

[Forest]

Do you believe that God predestined some people to heaven and predestined other people to hell?

Or did God only predestine people to heaven?

 

[Elderone]

Do you believe that God predestined some people to heaven and predestined other people to hell?

Or did God only predestine people to heaven?

Here is the Bible teaching and what I believe:

The Westminster Confession of Faith Chapter 3: Of God’s Eternal Decree

3:1 God from all eternity did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass (Rom_9:15, Rom_9:18; Rom_11:33; Eph_1:11; Heb_6:17): yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin (Jam_1:13, Jam_1:17; 1Jo_1:5), nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established (Pro_16:33; Mat_17:12; Joh_19:11; Act_2:23; Act_4:27, Act_4:28).

3:2 Although God knows whatsoever may or can come to pass upon all supposed conditions (Mat_11:21, Mat_11:23; Act_15:18; 1Sa_23:11, 1Sa_23:12), yet hath He not decreed any thing because He foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions (Rom_9:11, Rom_9:13, Rom_9:16, Rom_9:18).

3:3 By the decree of God, for the manifestation of His glory, some men and angels (Mat_25:41; 1Ti_5:21) are predestinated unto everlasting life, and others fore-ordained to everlasting death (Pro_16:4; Rom_9:22, Rom_9:23; Eph_1:5, Eph_1:6).

3:4 These angels and men, thus predestinated and fore-ordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number is so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished (Joh_13:18; 2Ti_2:19).

3:5 Those of mankind that are predestinated unto life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to His eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of His will, hath chosen, in Christ, unto everlasting glory (Rom_8:30; Eph_1:4, Eph_1:9, Eph_1:11; 1Th_5:9; 2Ti_1:9), out of His mere free grace and love, without any foresight of faith or good works, or perseverance in either of them, or any other thing in the creature, as conditions, or causes moving Him thereunto (Rom_9:11, Rom_9:13, Rom_9:16; Eph_1:4, Eph_1:9): and all to the praise of His glorious grace (Eph_1:6, Eph_1:12).

3:6 As God hath appointed the elect unto glory, so hath He, by the eternal and most free purpose of His will, fore-ordained all the means thereunto (Eph_1:4, Eph_1:5; Eph_2:10; 2Th_2:13; 1Pe_1:2). Wherefore they who are elected, being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ (1Th_5:9, 1Th_5:10; ***_2:14), are effectually called unto faith in Christ by His Spirit working in due season, are justified, adopted, sanctified (Rom_8:30; Eph_1:5; 2Th_2:13), and kept by His power through faith unto salvation (1Pe_1:5). Neither are any other redeemed by Christ, effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only (Joh_6:64, Joh_6:65; Joh_8:47; Joh_10:26; Joh_17:9; Rom_8:28-39; 1Jo_2:19).

3:7 The rest of mankind God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of His own will, whereby He extendeth or withholdeth mercy, as He pleaseth, for the glory of His sovereign power over His creatures, to pass by; and to ordain them to dishonour and wrath, for their sin, to the praise of His glorious justice (Mat_11:25, Mat_11:26; Rom_9:17, Rom_9:18, Rom_9:21, Rom_9:22; 2Ti_2:19, 2Ti_2:20; 1Pe_2:8; Jud_1:4).

3:8 The doctrine of this high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care (Deu_29:29; Rom_9:20; Rom_11:33), that men attending the will of God revealed in His Word, and yielding obedience thereunto, may, from the certainty of their effectual vocation, be assured of their eternal election (2Pe_1:10). So shall this doctrine afford matter of praise, reverence, and admiration of God (Rom_11:33; Eph_1:6), and of humility, diligence, and abundant consolation to all that sincerely obey the Gospel (Luk_10:20; Rom_8:33; Rom_11:5, Rom_11:6, Rom_11:20; 2Pe_1:10).

 

[reformedfan]

heaven and hell, Romans 9 sez so clearly & it wouldn't make any sense otherwise, to think kindly on one group (the ones predestined to heaven) & entirely ignore the other group. that's inconsistent with God's character.

 

[heymikey80]

Do you believe that God predestined some people to heaven and predestined other people to hell?

Or did God only predestine people to heaven?

imho:

God predestined everyone to warrant the punishment of Hell.

God alone can rescue anyone and everyone from that punishment.

God predestined to rescue some from Hell's punishment, through no merit of their own.

 

[vimto]

Sorry cannot agree - that is double predestination or hypercalvinism.

Man is responisible for His sin and it's consequesnces.

God elects some hellbound sinners to salvation.

In HIs Service,

 

[heymikey80]

God predestined everyone to warrant the punishment of Hell.
God alone can rescue anyone and everyone from that punishment.
God predestined to rescue some from Hell's punishment, through no merit of their own.

Sorry cannot agree - that is double predestination or hypercalvinism.
Man is responisible for His sin and it's consequesnces.
God elects some hellbound sinners to salvation.
In HIs Service,

It's double predestination; but that's not hypercalvinism.

It's actually Calvin:

If Pighius be anxious here to dwell upon the longsuffering of God, I fully agree with him; this fact, nevertheless, remains fixed and unaltered, that the reprobate are set apart, in the purpose of God, for the very end, that in them God might show forth His power. And that the longsuffering of God is, in the present instance, far removed from the apostle's mind and argument is evidenced from his immediate inference, when he observes " Whom He will He hardeneth.
​

"Eternal Predestination", p. 67

[In Romans 9 Paul] is claiming for God the right and the power to have mercy on whom He will, and to harden whom He will, according to His own pleasure and purpose. The apostle therefore maintains that the right of hardening and of showing mercy is in the power of God alone, and that no law can be imposed on Him as a rule for His works, because no law or rule can be thought of better, greater, or more just, than His own will !
​

"Eternal Predestination", p. 68

After the apostle had shown that God had made a distinction between the elect and the reprobate by His incomprehensible will, he draws in the same context this inference: " For He hath mercy on whom He will have mercy; and whom He will He hardeneth." To which he immediately subjoins, " Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth He yet find fault? " When Paul thus makes the persons speaking evidently plain and distinct, who would not rather attend to Paul's own words than to any extraneous comments upon them? Augustine here also, as in many other instances, most wisely observes, " It signifies but little in whose person you receive that to be spoken, which the apostle, by his answer, implies to be true. If the objection had been false, it is not very likely that the apostle would have been silent had the cause of the adversaries been so good, so clear, and so plausible. For if it be false that God hardens whom He will, this knot, so insolvable by all human intellect, might have been settled by the apostle in one word."
​

"Eternal Predestination" p. 69

And of course Scripture in Romans 9, 1 Peter 2:8.

 

[Forest]

It's double predestination; but that's not hypercalvinism.

What is the difference between "double predestination" and "hypercalvinism"?

 

[heymikey80]

What is the difference between "double predestination" and "hypercalvinism"?

Hypercalvinism is that God actively, Personally intervenes in the lives of people to make them reprobate. In fact God has caused people to be deserving of death, but not by working death in their beings directly, but by causing their sinful existence without working in their beings.

So in both cases the people are predestined (pre-designated), but God doesn't Personally deprive the unbeliever of something he purely desires or naturally possesses. The reprobate is simply operating through his nature as God caused it.

God actually Personally redirects the nature of the person chosen to salvation.

The horribly complicated theological term for this is "double asymmetric predestination." The "ultimacy" of predestination is different in the reprobate and the elect.

 

[Forest]

Hypercalvinism is that God actively, Personally intervenes in the lives of people to make them reprobate. In fact God has caused people to be deserving of death, but not by working death in their beings directly, but by causing their sinful existence without working in their beings.

So in both cases the people are predestined (pre-designated), but God doesn't Personally deprive the unbeliever of something he purely desires or naturally possesses. The reprobate is simply operating through his nature as God caused it.

God actually Personally redirects the nature of the person chosen to salvation.

The horribly complicated theological term for this is "double asymmetric predestination." The "ultimacy" of predestination is different in the reprobate and the elect.

I have a hard time seeing a difference between...

believing that God actively controls someone to do sinful things...and...believing that God created people and designed them so that he knew they would sin.

Is that what you are talking about?

What is the distinction?

 

[heymikey80]

I have a hard time seeing a difference between...

believing that God actively controls someone to do sinful things...and...believing that God created people and designed them so that he knew they would sin.

Is that what you are talking about?

What is the distinction?

Well, isn't that entirely the difference?

Control versus creation?

Take a look at all other views dealing with God as Prime Mover, as all-knowing, and as ultimately Good. Don't they all make precisely this distinction? If God is the sole cause of existence, He has caused everything that happens. If God knows everything that would happen, He was aware He designed us vulnerable to sin. And if God is ultimately good He will not ultimately be responsible for evil, nor intend evil to overcome His creation. The result occurs in every view of God as absolute in these ways.