Predestination vs Free Will

[ab1385]

Hey Guys, Im new to these forums, so hello everyone to start with!

This is a copy of a post in the non-christians forum, where I first posted it by mistake, so here we go...

The more I look, everywhere, about this topic, the more I find "Its not up to you to understand God." OK, so I can vaguely accept this. It is never up to us to question Gods ultimate sovereignty, or his ultimate goodness. The problems I have is that if a non-christian asked me this, I cannot believe that they would accep "its not up to you to understand". It basically comes across as a cop-out answer doesnt it?

Could some kind person out there point out a few relevant passages for me so I can see what I make of them? All I can seem to find is Romans 9... and Im very confused about the whole thing. I want to be able to explain this to someone in a proper way if I was asked, and at the moment I dont think I could!

 

[lands21]

See my sig line, and read Ephesians, and 2nd Peter

 

[sef]

Woah. I hope issues aren't sorted that quickly on these forums...
A couple questions?

What is predesitined in the verses you mentioned? Individuals? Peoples? Nations?
See, God predesitined the people of Isreal to be the saving nation of the world.
God chose the nation that would come from Jacob, and not the one from Esau. God chose the people of Israel to be the salvation of the world. There is predestination within Christianity, but it is of a people group, the church, the ressurected body of Christ, the bride. The church was predestined and elected according to the eternal purposes of God. Salvation now comes from the Church. But the chuch is a volutary organisation. WE CHOOSE wheather to become part of the predestined bride. We are the effective agents of christs grace within us. It is when we confess and belive that we speak into existance the "new creation" in our lives.

Christ will live forever. The question is wether we have chosen to be "in christ" when everything else is commited to flames.

 

[Patristic]

The church was predestined and elected according to the eternal purposes of God. Salvation now comes from the Church. But the chuch is a volutary organisation. WE CHOOSE wheather to become part of the predestined bride

The corporate election model, excellent. Just curious are you familiar with the new perspective movement that is attempting to gain a better 1st century Jewish understanding of the New Testaments texts? This school of thought, especially Wright, really opened my eyes to the 1st century Rabbinic tone of this view.

 

[Curt]

There is no such thing as predestination vs Freewill. Predestination is the result of God's foreknowledge of every thought we will ever think and every freewill choice we will ever make.

 

[israelthebride]

I AM predestined to be with MY HUSBAND, YH'SHWH.
Through HIS GIFT of SALVATION,
HE makes it possible for ME to BE with HIM.

My free will - will choose to submit to HIS GIFT of SALVATION
or not.

Every "if" YH'SHWH uses in HIS WORD/LAW (Genesis to Revelation)
confirms this.

LOVE, RICOEL

 

[lands21]

There is no such thing as predestination vs Freewill. Predestination is the result of God's foreknowledge of every thought we will ever think and every freewill choice we will ever make.

This is predetermination, not predestination. We are God's chosen people, no one comes to Christ without the Holy Spirit, and God chooses who recieves the Holy Spirit.

 

[Patristic]

There is no such thing as predestination vs Freewill. Predestination is the result of God's foreknowledge of every thought we will ever think and every freewill choice we will ever make.

Just curious, are you arguing that God's foreknowledge is the cause of future events?

 

[Breetai]

Aren't there already two or three recent threads on this topic already?

 

[Vollkommen Warrior]

We have the ability to choose. This IS what God wants us to do. Free will is ours. You can choose to be a good person or to go down the street with your vehicle and run everyone over (not recommending that, lol). It is God's choice that we have a choice. He does not want us to be robots.

 

[Patristic]

Aren't there already two or three recent threads on this topic already?

That may be the case, but there are no active threads in this particular room dealing with this topic so that's why it's here.

 

[lands21]

We have the ability to choose. This IS what God wants us to do. Free will is ours. You can choose to be a good person or to go down the street with your vehicle and run everyone over (not recommending that, lol). It is God's choice that we have a choice. He does not want us to be robots.

We have the ability as to WHEN we choose God, and how we live our life when we have accepted Christ, however, God is sovern, He chooses his followers.

 

[Curt]

This is predetermination, not predestination. We are God's chosen people, no one comes to Christ without the Holy Spirit, and God chooses who recieves the Holy Spirit.

I see no difference in the two. Peter tells us who the chosen are and how they are chosen. A good read on this issue is The Blessings, and the cursings.

1 Pet 1:2
2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
(KJV)

 

[lands21]

predetermination is that God knows everything, and that he knows the choices we will make, this is a correct statement. However, Predestination goes one step furthur then that, it is that God chooses us, not only does he know we will make the choice, he made it for us. The choice of wether not to accept Jesus or not.

This is a sovern God.

 

[Curt]

predetermination is that God knows everything, and that he knows the choices we will make, this is a correct statement. However, Predestination goes one step furthur then that, it is that God chooses us, not only does he know we will make the choice, he made it for us. The choice of wether not to accept Jesus or not.

This is a sovern God.

That definition of predestination will not hold up against the total of Bible Doctrine dealing with freewill. He chose us based on His foreknowledge of our freewill choices.

Joshua tells us to Choose who we will serve and he made his choice, God didn't choose for him. God knew what He would choose to do, and predestined him to lead His people. Predistined is another way of saying that ones destiny is predetermined, And God does this through His foreknowledge of our freewill choices. This is supported by the total of Scripture. And He actually gives us the choice to predetermine our own destiny as to the location of where we will spend eternity through The Scriptures.To make your assumption fit look at the words you have to add to what The Bible says.

 

[lands21]

If I have the ability to choose God, then he is not sovern. Not all powerful. He has limits. He can not choose me.

If I can choose God, then I am in control, not God.

God is in control, He is all powerful. He chooses His people, not based upon our decision, but only because He choose to.

 

[FOMWatts<><]

That definition of predestination will not hold up against the total of Bible Doctrine dealing with freewill. He chose us based on His foreknowledge of our freewill choices.

Joshua tells us to Choose who we will serve and he made his choice, God didn't choose for him. God knew what He would choose to do, and predestined him to lead His people. Predistined is another way of saying that ones destiny is predetermined, And God does this through His foreknowledge of our freewill choices. This is supported by the total of Scripture. And He actually gives us the choice to predetermine our own destiny as to the location of where we will spend eternity through The Scriptures.To make your assumption fit look at the words you have to add to what The Bible says.

Ummm, nope. So men are chosen because God knew that there was something good (their choice) in them? This does not work because nothing is good but God, so if God were not already in them they would not have the capability of choosing Him. Ever heard the verse "we love Him because He first loved us!"? That is the determining factor right their because God only loves His children, and He loved His children FIRST.

1 John 4:19
We love because he first loved us.

Blessings,

FOMWatts<><

 

[Curt]

Ummm, nope. So men are chosen because God knew that there was something good (their choice) in them? This does not work because nothing is good but God, so if God were not already in them they would not have the capability of choosing Him. Ever heard the verse "we love Him because He first loved us!"? That is the determining factor right their because God only loves His children, and He loved His children FIRST.

1 John 4:19
We love because he first loved us.

Blessings,

FOMWatts<><

God loves everybody. He has always loved us even when we were in sin, and those He foreknew would repent He predestined to be with Him in His Kingdom. You can't take one Scripture, you have to take them all, and we have to choose to respond to His love for us. If we don't His love doesn't stop but we will serve who we love, and that will determine where we spend eternity.

 

[Patristic]

predetermination is that God knows everything, and that he knows the choices we will make

No, predetermination is the idea that God is the one who determines our choices for us, and argues against man's capacity to choose. Whether it is cloaked in soft terminology or hard terminology determinism is still determinism in that God has to determine everything that takes place for Him to have any control over it; Although I would agree with this to a degree, I don't believe in theological determinism, but do hold to a form of determinism.

 

[Benedicta00]

No, predetermination is the idea that God is the one who determines our choices for us, and argues against man's capacity to choose. Whether it is cloaked in soft terminology or hard terminology determinism is still determinism in that God has to determine everything that takes place for Him to have any control over it; Although I would agree with this to a degree, I don't believe in theological determinism, but do hold to a form of determinism.

I view it more like He premoves us in our choices that he knows we will make.