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Not a chance IMO. "Predestination" and "Not Predestination" aren't simply different ways of interpreting "Predestination!"Or perhaps attempting to define "predestination" differently than scripture defines it.
I don't see that that has much weight. The Bible either supports the idea or it doesn't. I do admit that, as with many other issues, different people see some of these matters in a variety of different ways thanks to different interpretations.I would say that the Church's teaching on predestination before Calvin, never included OSAS in its teaching on the matter. The Augustinian, Molinist, and Thomist views of predestination, do not accept the OSAS concept.
It's God decision made in the individual's case.What is the "once"?
We all believe that salvation is made possible only because of Grace. To say what you did as though it solves the Faith vs. Works issue that has been a controversy for many centuries simply avoids the issue.No. What saves in Catholic theology is God's grace. That is what saves.
...or so you'd like to think, as one who does not believe in predestination.No it doesn't. It explains the lives of the predestined.
Ok. From my perspective I have not read one Scripture passage that supports OSAS, and we have a bigger Bible.I don't see that that has much weight. The Bible either supports the idea or it doesn't. I do admit that, as with many other issues, different people see some of these matters in a variety of different ways thanks to different interpretations.
We both know that that is not what is meant by OSAS.It's God decision made in the individual's case.
Well, the faith vs works issue is another concoction of the Rebellion. Faith and works are not polar opposites.We all believe that salvation is made possible only because of Grace. To say what you did as though it solves the Faith vs. Works issue that has been a controversy for many centuries simply avoids the issue.
...or so you'd like to think, as one who does not believe in predestination.
By my definitions, each word can bring out a different aspect and complementary clarificationThe use of 'coercive' in the discussion is redundant.
Not relief for those who God consigned to be born totally depraved, totally unable to repent and then consigned them to hell.What claim is that ?
Not relief for those who God consigned to be born totally depraved, totally unable to repent and then consigned them to hell.
Not relief for the answered prayer for a loved one, leading to despair and doubt.
I could go on...
Or perhaps I misunderstood your statement?
Yes I agree that we can allow that hopelessness in our lives and yes I've been there and thank God for reminding me He is always there for us if we call on Him. It's a shame Calvinism is such a nihilist unbiblical belief and to have such a foolish doctrine to believe that God would predesignate anyone to hell. The fact is we all be destined hell if it wasn't for God's unfathomable grace. My heart goes out to you about your wife.Hi BornAgain,
I think we are at cross purposes. Have you ever met some one in total despair, a member of their family is in a bad way, long, terminal illness, prayers go unanswered ( it seems). They start to doubt. And Calvinism does NOT help. They start to think they were predestined to be the seed on rocky ground. Predestined to grow in the faith, believe they are saved. Only to wither and die, as predestined by God.
I have seen it in others and I have been there myself when my wife's life was ended in a savage way.
When one hold another hand as they pass into eternity, bleeding and frightened, it has one big huge lasting effect on ones life - believe me. Then to see others go thru the same process, their pain fed by Calvinism's "God predestined it".
There is NO comfort, NO relief. Just more doubt heaped on more doubt, driving one to insanity.
It is - unfortunately - quite prevelant.
The book of Job has just stung into my mind.
But I didn't do that at all! Romans 2 was not introduced by me and was not part of my reference to Works Righteousness until it was thrown up to me.
Nor do I consider it the basis for either approving of or rejecting the idea of salvation by good works,
Hi BornAgain,
I think we are at cross purposes. Have you ever met some one in total despair, a member of their family is in a bad way, long, terminal illness, prayers go unanswered ( it seems). They start to doubt. And Calvinism does NOT help. .
In order not to derail another thread and in the hope of getting responses from a wider range of Christians, I have posted this question in GT.
The original question "How is predestining ALL things not in any way deterministic ?"
The reply was:
"It is deterministic - as in He works ALL things after the council of His good and perfect will.
But determining all things that will and will not take place in His creation is not “coercive".
God's predestination of something that a man does is not the same as coercing the man to do it."
My understanding that if God predestines something then it will happen and this is the exact same thing as God determining infallibly that something will happen. The use of 'coercive' in the discussion is redundant.
What do other people think and believe ?
So then you never sin and dishonor Christs sacrifice?God is omniscient. He knows all there is to know about everything. It makes no difference if it is past, present, or future tense regarding things on earth.
Before the foundation of the world God foreknew which people would be faithful to Him and His commandments until they died. God predestined these people to eternal life before they were born. He also put these people into His hand before they were born, never to be snatched out.
Before the foundation of the world God knew which people would never become faithful to Him and His commandments. God did not predestine these people to eternal life before they were born. God did not put these people into His hand before they were born.
Before the foundation of the world God knew which people would become faithful to Him and His commandments for a while but then not remain faithful until they died. God did not predestine these people to eternal life before they were born. God did not put these people into His hand before they were born.
Before the foundation of the world God knew that Adam would sin and lose the possibility for him and all his descendants to inherit eternal life. Therefore before the foundation of the world, God planned/destined the Son/Word to become incarnate so that He could, through His sacrificial death on the cross, redeem Adam and his descendants from his sin and thereby grant Adam and his descendants the possibility once again to inherit eternal life.
God's salvation plan is accomplished without denying any person his own free will choices. God forces no person to obey His commandments and He forces no person to disobey His commandments. God prevents no person from obeying His commandments and He prevents no person from disobeying His commandments.
We each freely choose by our own actions to be either a vessel for honor or a vessel for dishonor.
2 Timothy 2:20-21
But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay, some for honor and some for dishonor.21 Therefore if anyone cleanses himself from the latter, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified and useful for the Master, prepared for every good work. nkjv
Patmos said:
Not relief for those who God consigned to be born totally depraved, totally unable to repent and then consigned them to hell.
In a way, it is.
I agree with the OP, but at least in my understanding of the word "coercive" in context just means that God forces His Will to be done. I personally dont see this as how it works. We will only do what it is in our nature to do. If God gives us a new heart and His Spirit to guide us, there is no coercion required, because the person will naturally do those [and different from their old nature] things.
Analogy:
You're walking along a path and you round a corner to find a big boulder in your way, so you walk around it because it's not in your nature to just stop or turn around and go back. Unknown to you, I just put the boulder there. Did I "coerce" you to walk around it? To the point, since it was my will for you to walk around the boulder and with full knowledge that you would do so if I placed it there, was my will done?
Yes I agree that we can allow that hopelessness in our lives and yes I've been there and thank God for reminding me He is always there for us if we call on Him. It's a shame Calvinism is such a nihilist unbiblical belief and to have such a foolish doctrine to believe that God would predesignate anyone to hell. The fact is we all be destined hell if it wasn't for God's unfathomable grace. My heart goes out to you about your wife.
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