Predestination, is it coercive determinism ?

Thursday · May 10, 2016

ToBeLoved said:
Isn't the Catholic church full of pedifiles? That doesn't sound Christ-like. Jesus protected children. Maybe you should look closer at the Catholic church.

The Catholic Church and all of humanity is full of sinners, but there are no more pedophiles in the Catholic Church than any other Church. In fact, today there are far fewer than other Churches because of the rigid standards put in place after the scandals.

Thursday · May 10, 2016

ToBeLoved said:
Why would we assume that a successor is needed for an Apostle? Did Jesus say each apostle needed a successor? Who are the successor's for the other ones? Or are you singling out Peter for your own purposes?

Jesus promised to be with them until the end of the world. Do you think they were supposed to live to the end of the world?

Jesus also told them to go into all the world. Clearly that was not possible for those 12 men, but it was possible for the Church. Today you will find Catholics in every nation on earth sharing the gospel of Christ.

Jan001 · May 10, 2016

Albion said:
As I called to your attention before, "according to their own works" is not part of that verse (and I'm looking at a Catholic translation of the Bible as I write this).

Did I say it was? I don't recall that I said that "according to their own works" was specifically in that verse. I do know I made a conclusion about "according to their own works" because of some other Scripture verses which also pertain to this same subject.

So, then:

Why do you think God chose His "elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father"? 1 Peter 1:2

Do you think that God arbitrarily chose His elect before the foundation of the world or do you think that God chose His elect before the foundation of the world according to His foreknowledge of all the people's own future works?

By what criteria or criterion do you think God/Jesus judges all people when they die?

bbbbbbb · May 10, 2016

Thursday said:
Jesus promised to be with them until the end of the world. Do you think they were supposed to live to the end of the world?

Jesus also told them to go into all the world. Clearly that was not possible for those 12 men, but it was possible for the Church. Today you will find Catholics in every nation on earth sharing the gospel of Christ.

Well, I don't know about other areas of the world, but I do know about my area of the world. I have yet to encounter a single Catholic here sharing the gospel of Christ. In my entire life I have yet to encounter even one.

Jan001 · May 10, 2016

Albion said:
I've gotta say that that's a fond theory...but ridiculous. What you and others are doing when you say that is nothing more than stipulating that it's so. There is no evidence to support it. Or logic. And there are a number of decisions that were made by some council and later changed.

This thread is not about this topic. If it was, I'd ask you to advise me of one doctrinal decision regarding faith and morals that was changed.

However, Jesus did institute a hierarchy of bishops over His Church and He taught His hierarchy His commands so that then these faithful men could then appoint other faithful men to teach others, and then for these faithful men to teach others....and so on down through the years. We are required to obey Jesus' hierarchy's teachings because they come from God. Matthew 28:18-20

Hebrews 13:16-17
Do not neglect to do good and to share what you have, for such sacrifices are pleasing to God.17 Obey your leaders and submit to them; for they are keeping watch over your souls, as men who will have to give account. Let them do this joyfully, and not sadly, for that would be of no advantage to you. nkjv

1 Corinthians 14:37
If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord. nkjv

I think we should return to the topic of the OP so I will not be discussing any more about this topic here.

Jan001 · May 10, 2016

keltoi said:
The Bible was written by Hebrews not Catholics. Please understand the difference.

These Hebrew writers who believed in Jesus Christ became known as "Catholic" Christians, perhaps even before the apostles died. This word "catholic" is translated from the Greek language and it means "universal". Because the faith became known throughout the whole known world during the apostles' lifetime, the followers of Jesus Christ eventually became known as Catholics and their church became known as the Catholic Church.

In his letter to the church of Smyrna in the very early 100s A.D., Bishop Ignatius of Antioch writes, "Wheresoever the bishop appears, there let the people be, even as wheresoever Christ is, there is the Catholic Church."

Romans 1:8
First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world. nkjv

This topic is not the OP's topic.

Jan001 · May 10, 2016

ToBeLoved said:
I take it you lean heavily towards works oriented salvation.

Actually, it is Jesus who saves us. However, we do have to obey His instructions in order for Him to first save us and then we also have to continue to obey Him [His commandments] in order for Him to continue to save us. And then, if we continue to obey Jesus' commands until we die, He will finally appoint us worthy to inherit eternal life.

Grace saves us. But, it is our continued faith and our good works which maintain this saving grace [the Holy Spirit] which God and His Son Jesus gave to us to live in us when we first believed and were baptized. Mark 16:16

Albion · May 10, 2016

Jan001 said:
Did I say it was?

Yes. See post #608.

I don't recall that I said that "according to their own works" was specifically in that verse.

The point is that you offered that verse as proof that people are saved according to their own works...but the verse doesn't say anything of the sort.

So, then:

Why do you think God chose His "elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father"? 1 Peter 1:2

It's not necessary that we understand all the purposes of God. We have some ideas about this, but all that matters is whether he did predestine his Elect...or not...and the Scriptural testimony is that he did, but not on account of his knowledge of the Good Works that they would do.

Jan001 · May 10, 2016

BornAgainChristian1 said:
Could you point to one scripture that mentions "catholics" wrote the bible? Your joking here right?

There isn't any Scripture that mentions the word, "Catholic". There also isn't any Scripture that mentions the word, "Trinity", yet the early Christian fathers taught that God is a Trinity of Three Divine Persons.

Romans 1:8
First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world. nkjv

The early Christians came to be known as Catholics and their church became known as the Catholic Church. This is historical fact and so we know that the NT Bible Canon of Scripture came to us from and through the Catholic Church.

This is off-topic for this thread.

bbbbbbb · May 10, 2016

Albion said:
Yes. See post #608.

The point is that you offered that verse as proof that people are saved according to their own works...but the verse doesn't say anything of the sort.

It's not necessary that we understand all the purposes of God. We have some ideas about this, but all that matters is whether he did predestine his Elect...or not...and the Scriptural testimony is that he did, but not on account of his knowledge of the Good Works that they would do.

Yes, scripture does not indicate any form of human merit entering into the decision of God to save His elect ones.

Jan001 · May 10, 2016

BornAgainChristian1 said:
Fact is all laws are of God alone and if you don't believe that then where exactly did Moses get the laws from? Oh wait God wrote them down on two tablets twice hmmmm.......right from Moses mouth...

God's law(s) which God gave to His people through Moses became known as the Law of Moses.

Luke 2:22
Now when the days of her purification according to the law of Moses were completed, they brought Him to Jerusalem to present Him to the Lord nkjv

John 7:19
Did not Moses give you the law, yet none of you keeps the law? Why do you seek to kill Me?” nkjv

Hebrews 10:28
Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. nkjv

BornAgainChristian1 · May 10, 2016

Thursday said:
The Church Jesus started does:

John 20
21Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.”22And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit.23If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”

Yes I believe that's what happens when you work with mistranslations. BTW there is no CHURCH mentioned in this verse. Pay mind to the context next time.

John 20:21-231599 Geneva Bible (GNV)
21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father sent me, so send I you.
22 And when he had said that, he breathed on them, and said unto them, Receive the holy Ghost.
23 Whosoever’s sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them: and whosoever’s sins ye retain, they are retained.

John 20:23 The publishing of the forgiveness of sins by faith in Christ, and the setting forth and denouncing the wrath of God in retaining the sins of the unbelievers, is the sum of the preaching of the Gospel.

BornAgainChristian1 · May 10, 2016

Jan001 said:
There isn't any Scripture that mentions the word, "Catholic". There also isn't any Scripture that mentions the word, "Trinity", yet the early Christian fathers taught that God is a Trinity of Three Divine Persons.

Romans 1:8
First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world. nkjv

The early Christians came to be known as Catholics and their church became known as the Catholic Church. This is historical fact and so we know that the NT Bible Canon of Scripture came to us from and through the Catholic Church.

This is off-topic for this thread.

You are talking strictly of YOUR early CHURCH fathers. And thank you for confirming that this has nothing to do with your CHURCH as "THE CHURCH" because the "CHURCH" is made up of all BORN AGAIN BELIEVERS.

Albion · May 10, 2016

Jan001 said:
The early Christians came to be known as Catholics and their church became known as the Catholic Church.

No more than 'the early Christians came to be known as Orthodox and their churches became known as the Orthodox churches.'

In fact, that would be a stronger argument because the Eastern theologians did more of the work at these councils than the ones from the West, and it was the Roman Church that changed the Creed some time later, breaking with the others and causing the Great Schism.

BornAgainChristian1 · May 10, 2016

Jan001 said:
God's law(s) which God gave to His people through Moses became known as the Law of Moses.

Luke 2:22
Now when the days of her purification according to the law of Moses were completed, they brought Him to Jerusalem to present Him to the Lord nkjv

John 7:19
Did not Moses give you the law, yet none of you keeps the law? Why do you seek to kill Me?” nkjv

Hebrews 10:28
Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. nkjv

Your claim still hasn't changed the fact that God gave Moses all the laws he REPEATED to the Jews.

Jan001 · May 10, 2016

Rick Otto said:
Salvation maintenance is a euphemism for probation.
What is to keep one from sinning in heaven... free will?

There can be no evil in God's presence. The faithful followers of Jesus Christ will be of one mind with God for righteousness.

1 Peter 3:8
Finally, all of you be of one mind, having compassion for one another; love as brothers, be tenderhearted, be courteous; nkjv

1 Peter 4:1
Therefore, since Christ suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same mind, for he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin, nkjv

1 Corinthians 15:28
Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all. nkjv

Philippians 2:5
Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, nkjv

Revelation 21:27
But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life. nkjv

Matthew 5:8
Blessed are the pure in heart, For they shall see God. nkjv

Our presence on earth is a continual time of testing to see if we are still in Christ, still in the faith.

2 Corinthians 13:5
Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you are disqualified. nkjv

How do you think people become disqualified from the faith?

Jan001 · May 10, 2016

Rick Otto said:
Eternal life is not a reward.

Matthew 25:46
And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” nkjv

Romans 2:6-8
who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, nkjv

What do you think eternal life is if it is not a reward for a person's faithfulness until his death to the gospel of Jesus Christ?

Jan001 · May 10, 2016

BornAgainChristian1 said:
Agreed because salvation is a gift of God.

Salvation is a gift of God. True.

However, continued faithfulness/obedience to God's commandments is what keeps a person saved. If a person continues in his salvation until his death, Jesus will then approve him worthy to inherit eternal life.

Revelation 2:10
Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you life as your victor’s crown. nkjv

James 1:12
Blessed is the one who perseveres under trial because, having stood the test, that person will receive the crown of life that the Lord has promised to those who love him. nkjv

Thursday · May 10, 2016

bbbbbbb said:
Well, I don't know about other areas of the world, but I do know about my area of the world. I have yet to encounter a single Catholic here sharing the gospel of Christ. In my entire life I have yet to encounter even one.

1.3 billion strong and growing. Even in the US the Catholic Church is growing faster than the population is growing.

I'm sure you nearest Catholic Church has outreach programs. Check it out.

Thursday · May 10, 2016

BornAgainChristian1 said:
Yes I believe that's what happens when you work with mistranslations. BTW there is no CHURCH mentioned in this verse. Pay mind to the context next time.

John 20:21-231599 Geneva Bible (GNV)
21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father sent me, so send I you.
22 And when he had said that, he breathed on them, and said unto them, Receive the holy Ghost.
23 Whosoever’s sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them: and whosoever’s sins ye retain, they are retained.

John 20:23 The publishing of the forgiveness of sins by faith in Christ, and the setting forth and denouncing the wrath of God in retaining the sins of the unbelievers, is the sum of the preaching of the Gospel.

What is the mistranslation? I quoted a protestant bible by the way.

How does your translation say anything different than the NIV I used?

Predestination, is it coercive determinism ?

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