Predestination Help Please

[GraphicMD]

Forgive me if this topic has been played out more than the regulars here care to see. The amount of topics is a bit overwhelming at first.

I recently realized how little about predestination I know. I have always believed Evil exists when God is not present just as cold exists when heat is not present, or dark exists when light is not and so forth.

I was recently led to believe this wasn't true. When Calvin divided the church more and more people believe Evil exists because God ordained it. Evil deeds happen because God predestined it and wanted them to happen. Someone was murdered because it was a part of Gods overall plan.

I started looking up sites online and noticed some verses I just can't quite understand. Can someone explain to me the relevance of Free Will in these verses?

Perhaps Predestinations means we can't choose our final resting place (heaven/hell), but can choose our actions. Maybe there is a certain amount to free will we do have control over. Where exactly is this line drawn? The more a look into this the less I understand.

Acts 13
48When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed.

John 1
12Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God-- 13children born not of natural descent,[1] nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.

Romans 8
28And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him,[1] who[2] have been called according to his purpose. 29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

[edit]
I just found this thread http://www.christianforums.com/t71435
It seems that topic has already matured.

Perhaps this would have done better under the Soteriology forums.
[/edit]

 

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings GraphicMD,

Have you given any serious consideration to God's "omni-" qualities? I am speaking particularly of his "omniscience". Have you considered these verses:

Acts 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

Romans 8:29-30 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

When the verses you presented are revealed in the light of these verses, then there is understanding. God saw before the foundation of the world how everything was going to turn out. In fact the Book of Life was written:

Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

God's foreknowledge does not mean that He orchestrated all events, only that He KNEW what was going to transpire long before anything ever happened.

Does that help?

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Revelation 17
8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from (since) the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
There is room for discussion on this verse. The greek preposition "apo" translated "from" could also be translated "since"... which would mean the names were not written there on day one, but where added at some point "since" the beginnig. Your name may have been added today... and that would still be "since" the foundation of the world, or in the time period from then till now.

Here is an example of where the preposition "apo" is actually translated "since":
Matthew 24:21 MKJV
21 for then shall be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world to this time; no, nor ever shall be.

The "King James Concordance" actually has numerous instances where "apo" could be translated "since":

G575
apo
Total KJV Occurrences: 53
since, 12
Mat_24:21, Luk_1:70, Luk_7:45, Luk_16:16, Act_3:21 (2), Act_24:11, Col_1:6, Col_1:9, Heb_9:26, 2Pe_3:4, Rev_16:18

off, 11
Mat_8:30, Mat_26:58, Mat_27:55, Mar_5:6, Mar_14:54, Mar_15:40, Luk_16:23, Joh_11:18, Rev_18:10, Rev_18:15, Rev_18:17

at, 9
Mat_19:4, Luk_24:27, Luk_24:47, Joh_8:9, Act_8:35, Act_23:23, Act_26:4, 1Pe_4:17 (2)

ago, 4
Act_10:30, Act_15:7, 2Co_8:10, 2Co_9:2

on, 4
Rev_21:13 (4)

henceforth, 3
Mat_23:39, Mat_26:29, 2Co_5:16

before, 2
Act_7:45, 1Jo_2:28

hereafter, 2
Mat_26:64, Luk_22:69

among, 1
Act_15:19

because, 1
Mat_18:7

escape, 1
Mat_23:33

forsake, 1
Act_21:21

some, 1
Rom_15:15

space, 1
Rev_14:20

 

[k4c]

Forgive me if this topic has been played out more than the regulars here care to see. The amount of topics is a bit overwhelming at first.

I recently realized how little about predestination I know. I have always believed Evil exists when God is not present just as cold exists when heat is not present, or dark exists when light is not and so forth.

I was recently led to believe this wasn't true. When Calvin divided the church more and more people believe Evil exists because God ordained it. Evil deeds happen because God predestined it and wanted them to happen. Someone was murdered because it was a part of Gods overall plan.

I started looking up sites online and noticed some verses I just can't quite understand. Can someone explain to me the relevance of Free Will in these verses?

Perhaps Predestinations means we can't choose our final resting place (heaven/hell), but can choose our actions. Maybe there is a certain amount to free will we do have control over. Where exactly is this line drawn? The more a look into this the less I understand.

Acts 13
48When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed.

John 1
12Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God-- 13children born not of natural descent,[1] nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.

Romans 8
28And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him,[1] who[2] have been called according to his purpose. 29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

[edit]
I just found this thread http://www.christianforums.com/t71435
It seems that topic has already matured.

Perhaps this would have done better under the Soteriology forums.
[/edit]

Hello GraphicMD,

As I study God's word I find Him saying many things about a certain group of people He calls the elect. I believe these are certain individuals that God as predestined to be His remnant in other words, to be His witness throughout the ages. God has always set aside a small select few to speak is word in truth to His creation. We don't know who they are but they always seem to stand out from the rest of God's creation no matter how hard things get for them.

Romans 11:3-5 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Matthew 24:24 "For false christs and false prophets will arise and show great signs and wonders, so as to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

If God didn't have an elect few to represent Him we would all come to be as Sodoma and Gomorrah.

Romans 9:27-29 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved: For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth. And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.

In Christ we are all predestined but the question is, who will come to Christ and who will remain in Christ? Many are called but few are chosen.

Revelation 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

Blessings in Christ,
John

 

[G4m]

Forgive me if this topic has been played out more than the regulars here care to see. The amount of topics is a bit overwhelming at first.

I recently realized how little about predestination I know. I have always believed Evil exists when God is not present just as cold exists when heat is not present, or dark exists when light is not and so forth.

I was recently led to believe this wasn't true. When Calvin divided the church more and more people believe Evil exists because God ordained it. Evil deeds happen because God predestined it and wanted them to happen. Someone was murdered because it was a part of Gods overall plan.

I started looking up sites online and noticed some verses I just can't quite understand. Can someone explain to me the relevance of Free Will in these verses?

Perhaps Predestinations means we can't choose our final resting place (heaven/hell), but can choose our actions. Maybe there is a certain amount to free will we do have control over. Where exactly is this line drawn? The more a look into this the less I understand.

Acts 13
48When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed.

John 1
12Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God-- 13children born not of natural descent,[1] nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.

Romans 8
28And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him,[1] who[2] have been called according to his purpose. 29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

[edit]
I just found this thread http://www.christianforums.com/t71435
It seems that topic has already matured.

Perhaps this would have done better under the Soteriology forums.
[/edit]

It helps to know who is predestined:

Ephesians 1
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Revelation 7
4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

 

[Bob Moore]

Perhaps Predestinations means we can't choose our final resting place (heaven/hell),...

That is right. You already understand it pretty well. I am going to give you a lot of scripture to back up what I'm telling you. Please take the time to look up the citations.

The Effectual Call

"All those whom God hath predestinated unto life, and those only, He is pleased in His appointed and accepted time effectually to call, by His Word and Spirit, out of that state of sin and death, in which they are by nature, to grace and salvation by Jesus Christ; enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God; taking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them a heart of flesh; renewing their wills, and by His almighty power determining them to that which is good, and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ: yet so, as they come most freely, being made willing by His grace.

Rom. viii. 30; Rom. xi. 7; Eph. i. 10, 11; 2 Thess. ii. 13, 14; 2 Cor. iii. 3, 6; Rom. viii. 2; Eph. ii. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5; 2 Tim. i. 9, 10; Acts xxvi. 18; 1 Cor. ii. 10, 12; Eph. i. 17, 18; Ezek. xxxvi. 26; Ezek. xi. 19; Phil. ii. 13; Deut. xxx. 6; Ezek. xxxvi. 27; Eph. i. 19; John vi. 44, 45; Cant. i. 4; Ps. cx. 3; John vi. 37; Rom. vi. 16, 17, 18.

but can choose our actions.Maybe there is a certain amount to free will we do have control over. Where exactly is this line drawn? The more a look into this the less I understand.

"God hath endued the will of man with that natural liberty, that it is neither forced, nor by any absolute necessity of nature determined to good or evil.

Matt. xvii. 12; James i. 14; Deut. xxx. 19.

II. Man, in his state of innocency, had freedom and power to will and to do that which was good, and well pleasing to God; but yet mutably, so that he might fall from it.

Eccl. vii. 29; Gen. i. 26; Gen. ii. 16, 17; Gen. iii. 6.

III. Man, by his fall into a state of sin, hath wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation: so as, a natural man, being altogether averse from that good, and dead in sin, is not able, by his own strength, to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto.

Rom. v. 6; Rom. viii. 7; John xv. 5; Rom. iii. 10, 12; Eph. ii. 1, 5; Col. ii. 13; John vi. 44, 65; Eph. ii. 2, 3, 4, 5; 1 Cor. ii. 14; Titus iii. 3, 4, 5.

IV. When God converts a sinner, and translates him into the state of grace, He freeth him from his natural bondage under sin; and, by His grace alone, enables him freely to will and to do that which is spiritually good; yet so, as that by reason of his remaining corruption, he doth not perfectly, nor only, will that which is good, but doth also will that which is evil.

Col. i. 13; John viii. 34. 36; Phil. ii. 13; Rom. vi. 18, 22; Gal. v. 17; Rom. vii. 15, 18, 19, 21, 23.

V. The will of man is made perfectly and immutably free to good alone, in the state of glory only.

Eph. iv. 13; Heb. xii. 23; 1 John iii. 2; Jude. ver. 24.

Acts 13
48When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed.

John 1
12Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God-- 13children born not of natural descent,[1] nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.

Romans 8
28And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him,[1] who[2] have been called according to his purpose. 29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

I think that if you study the supporting passages you will see how free will and the call of God interact.

But in all your study, keep this uppermost, "Ephesians 2:8-9 for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not of works, that no man should glory."

The detailed explanations cited above explain why the doctrines are what they are. There is much more available if you need it.