Predestination: Concept or Doctrine

Van · Feb 21, 2006

Two quick points, it is our love of Christ, not Christ's love of us, that controls us. If we do not love Christ, we do not keep His commandments. Since Christ made us alive, so that we should no longer live for ourselves but for Christ.

pcwilkins · Feb 21, 2006

Yes. But at the same time, we love Him because He first loved us.

Peter

GenemZ · Feb 21, 2006

pcwilkins said:
Yes. But at the same time, we love Him because He first loved us.

Peter

Important note:

The Greek says, "We love, because he first loved us." It does not say whom we love. It was the KJV, that added we love Him. The Greek does not say that.

Our capacity to have virtue in our love comes from being loved by God. There is no object of our love given, in the Greek Scripture. We are commanded to love all.

In Christ, GeneZ

Van · Feb 21, 2006

We love God and we love others because God first loved us. Our capacity to emulate God's love comes from our nature as a being created in the image of God. The slave owning slave, who had his large debt forgiven knew that he should forgive the debt of the slave who owed him little. But he did not love God, the love of God was not in him, and he did not love others. He did not obtain mercy. But my point is he had the capacity to forgive others as he had been forgiven. When we pray, God forgive us as we forgive others, we attest to our capacity to love others, to have mercy on them, we do not esteem the world's value system. Our treasure is in heaven. We love God because He first loved us.

GenemZ · Feb 21, 2006

Van said:
We love God and we love others because God first loved us. Our capacity to emulate God's love comes from our nature as a being created in the image of God. The slave owning slave, who had his large debt forgiven knew that he should forgive the debt of the slave who owed him little. But he did not love God, the love of God was not in him, and he did not love others. He did not obtain mercy. But my point is he had the capacity to forgive others as he had been forgiven. When we pray, God forgive us as we forgive others, we attest to our capacity to love others, to have mercy on them, we do not esteem the world's value system. Our treasure is in heaven. We love God because He first loved us.

Yet, not all who believe experience the love for God. They have "a" love for God, they may say. But, the love that God gives (agape) they refuse to walk in.

Philippians 3:17-19
"Join with others in following my example, brothers, and take note of those who constantly live according to the pattern we gave you. For, as I have often told you before and now say again even with tears, many keep living as enemies of the cross of Christ. Their destiny is destruction, their god is their emotions, and their glory is in their shame. Their mind is on earthly things."

Many are motivated by their emotions. Just like many loved Hitler. That was emotional human love.

The kind of love God gives (agape) requires understanding and knowledge in order to be made free to be expressed. It is not a mindless type love, nor a selfish type love. Its a love that submits to the authority of God's Word. Its not the kind of love that is expressed simply because someone agrees with your point of view.

Philippians 1:9 niv
And this is my prayer: that your love may abound more and more in knowledge and depth of insight."

False doctrine is perperuated by human love. By emotion. By mutual approval of one another. By a sharing of the same mind set in the natural.

In Christ, GeneZ

Van · Feb 21, 2006

Scripture certainly alludes to professing Christians who are tares, who are not born again, who have a rootless faith, who have been enlightened but their knowledge has not been united with faith. On the other hand, God has promised to those who love Him and are devoted to Him to raise on the last day. Predestined as it were to bodily resurrection unto eternal life. And this promise has been sealed with the love of God which dwells within them, the Spirit of Christ.

GenemZ · Feb 21, 2006

Van said:
Scripture certainly alludes to professing Christians who are tares, who are not born again, who have a rootless faith, who have been enlightened but their knowledge has not been united with faith.

Many are saved. Many, truth alludes them.

Pride short circuits their spiritual progress. Mind you, pride is also quick to condemn those who refuse to walk in truth after they are saved.

Many are saved, but only a few will be chosen to serve with the Lord during his reign. They are chosen because they remain faithful to doing God's will.

On the other hand, God has promised to those who love Him and are devoted to Him to raise on the last day.

God promises to raise all who believe in Jesus Christ. Even those who rebel against doing God's will.

Grace and peace, GeneZ

Van · Feb 21, 2006

God promises to raise all who believe in Jesus Christ. Even those who rebel against doing God's will.

I suggest you reread Matthew chapter 7, Jesus says the exact opposite of your assertion.

There is also no verse that says many are saved but few are chosen. Many are called but few are chosen makes being chosen a subset of the many who hear the gospel message, those that respond with heart-felt faith.

GenemZ · Feb 21, 2006

Van said:
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I suggest you reread Matthew chapter 7, Jesus says the exact opposite of your assertion.

There is also no verse that says many are saved but few are chosen. Many are called but few are chosen makes being chosen a subset of the many who hear the gospel message, those that respond with heart-felt faith.

All who believe on Christ will be raised up in the Last Day. All. Jesus made this very clear so the legalists will have to bite their lips when they want to judge believers who reject God's desired plan and will for their lives.

John 6:37-40 (New International Version)
" All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

Did you note? Why did he need to add?

"and whoever comes to me I will never drive away."

He had to add that, because there are many believers who act in such a way that one might wonder if they were ever saved. That's between them and God. For Jesus gave his oath....

"I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. "

He shall lose NONE. All who believe will be saved. Why say that? For many believers do not act like a Christian should. Full of pride and spiritual arrogance.... false teachings abound everywhere. So it shall be until the Lord returns.

1 Corinthians 11:19 niv
"No doubt there have to be differences among you to show which of you have God's approval."

Not all believers have God's approval. But, they are still saved from Hell. Jesus gave his word on it.

"I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. "

In Christ, GeneZ

GenemZ · Feb 21, 2006

Van said:
[/font]
I suggest you reread Matthew chapter 7, Jesus says the exact opposite of your assertion.

There is also no verse that says many are saved but few are chosen. Many are called but few are chosen makes being chosen a subset of the many who hear the gospel message, those that respond with heart-felt faith.

Many are called unto salvation.

But, out of all who were called?

Only a few will be chosen by God to reign with Christ! There are many more believers than there will be nations on earth! Only few will be chosen for such a task and honor. Yet, many are saved.

Revelation 2:26 niv
"To him who overcomes and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations."

Only a few will find the life God desires us to find after we are saved. Jesus said, "few find it."

Proof of this is how so many denominations exist, and they all have conflicts with each other. Yet? They all believe Jesus died for their sins.

Acts 16:31 niv
They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household."

That is all it takes to be saved from Hell.

Now? To be saved from the evils that permeate our generation on earth? That requires a second type of salvation. One that only knowing the Truth will make you free from the tryanny of evil's dominance over your soul. Overcoming!

If you only believed in Jesus Christ dying for your sins? Then, the Lake of Fire will not have your name in its reservation book.

Grace and peace, GeneZ

Van · Feb 22, 2006

More false doctrine, more misunderstanding of scripture.

All who are born again will be raised up on the last day, not all who say Lord, Lord and believe but practice lawlessness. Matthew chapter 7 is crystal.

How does the Father give someone to the Son? The Father gives to the Son those who have heard and learned from the Father. So it does not depend on the one who wills, but on God who accepts our faith and reckons it as righteousness. We can say we believe till the cows come home, but if it is a rootless faith, God will not accept it and place us spiritually in Christ. We do not save ourselves, God saves us, He has mercy on whom He has mercy.

Once we are born again after God accepts our trust in Christ, we are predestined to eternal life and will not be cast out or driven away. But, because our faith is protected, we will strive to live according to the will of God. Those that practice lawlessness are not and were never born again, and on that day Jesus will say I NEVER knew you, you were never spiritually placed in Me.

Easy believism is a mistaken view of scripture. Once you are actually saved, its settled (OASIS) but just because you receive the gospel with joy does not mean you are saved, see Matthew 13.

GenemZ · Feb 22, 2006

Van said:
More false doctrine, more misunderstanding of scripture.

All who are born again will be raised up on the last day, not all who say Lord, Lord and believe but practice lawlessness. Matthew chapter 7 is crystal.

How does the Father give someone to the Son? The Father gives to the Son those who have heard and learned from the Father. So it does not depend on the one who wills, but on God who accepts our faith and reckons it as righteousness. We can say we believe till the cows come home, but if it is a rootless faith, God will not accept it and place us spiritually in Christ. We do not save ourselves, God saves us, He has mercy on whom He has mercy.

Once we are born again after God accepts our trust in Christ, we are predestined to eternal life and will not be cast out or driven away. But, because our faith is protected, we will strive to live according to the will of God. Those that practice lawlessness are not and were never born again, and on that day Jesus will say I NEVER knew you, you were never spiritually placed in Me.

Easy believism is a mistaken view of scripture. Once you are actually saved, its settled (OASIS) but just because you receive the gospel with joy does not mean you are saved, see Matthew 13.

I said, "believe." Either you believe, or you don't.

The young man committing incest with his mother? Paul never mentions losing salvation, nor not being saved. Paul simply wanted them to repent of their sins so they could be restored to fellowship. Paul even stated that this sort of sin did not even occur among the pagans (unbelievers).

1 Corinthians 5:1-2 (New International Version)
" It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that does not occur even among pagans: A man has his father's wife. And you are proud! Shouldn't you rather have been filled with grief and have put out of your fellowship the man who did this? "

In the next letter, Paul then has to admonish the congregation to stop being so harsh against this young man, and to let him back into the fellowship!

2 Corinthians 2:5-11 (New International Version)
"If anyone has caused grief, he has not so much grieved me as he has grieved all of you, to some extentnot to put it too severely. The punishment inflicted on him by the majority is sufficient for him.

Now instead, you ought to forgive and comfort him, so that he will not be overwhelmed by excessive sorrow.

I urge you, therefore, to reaffirm your love for him. The reason I wrote you was to see if you would stand the test and be obedient in everything.

If you forgive anyone, I also forgive him. And what I have forgivenif there was anything to forgiveI have forgiven in the sight of Christ for your sake, in order that Satan might not outwit us. For we are not unaware of his schemes."

Jesus did not drive this young man away.

Yet, I do agree about Matthew 7:21-23. There will be those who claim to be of Christ, and Jesus never knew them. They were never saved.

But, that was another category of person. One working with demonic power in the name of Christ. They thought they were saved because they saw supernatural power working in their lives.

Matthew 7:21-23 (New International Version)
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!"

That speaks of the Benny Hinns and Kenneth Hagins of the world.

In Christ, GeneZ

Van · Feb 22, 2006

And the beat goes on...

I said, "believe." Either you believe, or you don't.

To the contrary, either your belief is sufficient for God's purpose, or it is not. Matthew 13:20-21.

The Corinthian sinner was disciplined by the local assembly of beleivers and restored to fellowship. Since the fellowship is made up of born again believers and professing Christians that are not born again, the passage does not support the premise that folks who practice lawlessness are born again. Certainly unrepentant lawlessness is an indication of never being saved, of being a tare and not born again wheat.

In Matthew 7:24-27 we see the application of the parable of the four soils, a person who hears the gospel and accepts it and puts his or her heart-felt faith into action is building of the foundation of Christ, as a born again believer. But a person who hears the gospel and accepts it but does not put his or her superficial belief into action when faced with affliction or the competing priorities of worldly treasures has built his or her house on sand.

The point is well made by Luke's account (Luke 6:46-49) that we are not talking only of folks cast out demons, but of any and all who practice lawlessness, who do put our Lord's words into action because of a lack of a heart-felt faith in the Rock, folks who have not built their life on the Rock.

pcwilkins · Feb 22, 2006

Van said:
And the beat goes on...
To the contrary, either your belief is sufficient for God's purpose, or it is not. Matthew 13:20-21.

Van, isn't what you're saying "either we're born again or we're not"?

As you say, believing is not always salvation - there is such a thing as dead faith.

Peter

Van · Feb 22, 2006

Peter, sort of, I am saying it is not whether we believe or not, demons believe, but whether God accepts our belief and reckons it as righteousness, and when He does, then He spiritually removes us from being "in Adam" and places us "in Christ" When we are placed "in Christ" we are regenerated and arise in Christ a new creature, born again from above. We do not save ourselves for it does not depend upon the man who wills but upon God who has mercy on whom He has mercy.

GenemZ · Feb 22, 2006

Van said:
And the beat goes on...
To the contrary, either your belief is sufficient for God's purpose, or it is not. Matthew 13:20-21.

Nice of you to show the Scripture, so I am not left looking at a name and numbers that tell me nothing. But, here it is for you.... In its context!

Matthew 13:18-23 (New International Version)
"Listen then to what the parable of the sower means: When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart."

This one does not even get saved. He does not understand the message, and Satan sets up rationales so there will be no pursuit of trying to understand.

"This is the seed sown along the path. The one who received the seed that fell on rocky places is the man who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. But since he has no root, he lasts only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly falls away. "

This type lives by his emotions. Superficial thinking. He does understand the salvation message, though. He gets saved but remains carnal. He can not face the pressures that come with salvation, and fades back into the cosmic system and conforms to it.

"The one who received the seed that fell among the thorns is the man who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke it, making it unfruitful. "

This one refuses to give up ambitions for worldly success that he clings to. When God will not provide his needs demanded by his flesh, he refuses to continue along God's plan for his life. May become religious and attend a church promoting the traditions of men to appear to have good standing in the community.

But the one who received the seed that fell on good soil is the man who hears the word and understands it. He produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown."

The issue here is producing fruit! Not who gets saved. You have confused post salvation production, with the very act of getting saved, itself.

The Corinthian sinner was disciplined by the local assembly of beleivers and restored to fellowship. Since the fellowship is made up of born again believers and professing Christians that are not born again, the passage does not support the premise that folks who practice lawlessness are born again. Certainly unrepentant lawlessness is an indication of never being saved, of being a tare and not born again wheat.

Paul never warns of him not being saved! That was my point! Why not simply kick the tare out for good?

It was a non-issue for Paul. For Paul knew that Jesus would lose none of all who the Father gave Jesus.

There was no real problem with tares in the early church. That came later on as Satan learned ways to infiltrate. That took time. The first tact Satan tried was persecution of the churches. That only produced stronger believers and made it spread. So, he backed off and devised ways to work his way into the church with false believers taking the helm.

In Matthew 7:24-27 we see the application of the parable of the four soils, a person who hears the gospel and accepts it and puts his or her heart-felt faith into action is building of the foundation of Christ, as a born again believer.

Only one did not hear (understand) the message. That is the one that Satan snatched away. The other three all got saved. Only one of the three matured in Christ.

Now? If your concept of who is saved were to stand? Those who disagree with how you see Scripture? Are they saved?

In Christ, GeneZ

Van · Feb 22, 2006

The issue here is producing fruit! Not who gets saved. You have confused post salvation production, with the very act of getting saved, itself.

This assertion is contrary to the plain reading of the passage. It is simply an effort to avoid the meaning of the passage. Anyone who hears the gospel and does not understand it does not get saved. So the topic under discussion is saving faith, not fruitful faith subsequent to salvation. Those who have saving faith and are born again then produce fruit.

Now in verse 22 we see that the person who loves the world produces no fruit. Recall that John teaches (John 15) that unless you have been born again (Christ abides in you) you cannot produce fruit.

Now in verse 23, we have the man that hears the gospel, understands the gospel, this person bears fruit. Since you cannot bear fruit unless you are indwelt, God has accepted this person's faith, and placed him or her in Christ and indwelt the person. Saving faith is on display throughout the passage.

Paul never warns of him not being saved! That was my point! Why not simply kick the tare out for good?

Great question. Really great. Why not just kick the tare out, why not uproot the tare??? Because the tare can become a born again wheat. Some plant, some water, and so the tares have been planted, they have heard the gospel, and they are being watered, they are learning of the level of devotion and commitment exhibited by those seeking the righteousness of God by faith.

Only one did not hear (understand) the message. That is the one that Satan snatched away. The other three all got saved. Only one of the three matured in Christ.

Folks, read the passage, only the good soil, the cultivated soil possessed saving faith and produced fruit. Only one understood it, took it to heart, and discarded the treasures of this world, the good soil.

sawdust · Feb 22, 2006

Van said:
[/FONT]
This assertion is contrary to the plain reading of the passage.

Folks, read the passage, only the good soil, the cultivated soil possessed saving faith and produced fruit. Only one understood it, took it to heart, and discarded the treasures of this world, the good soil.

Uh huh, plain reading. Well lets read it again.

"This is the seed sown along the path. The one who received the seed that fell on rocky places is the man who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. But since he has no root, he lasts only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly falls away. "

Now I wonder what this word is this one received. Wouldn't be the Gospel perchance, would it?

I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. Rom.1:16

Considering this man received it, then he must surely have believed.

"The one who received the seed that fell among the thorns is the man who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke it, making it unfruitful. "

Once again, we have a man who has received the word.

I surely hope you are not going to try and say these people did not have salvation because to do so would mean the Lord doesn't keep His promises. After all He did say that "whosoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life."

As far as I can "plainly" see, numbers 2 and 3 have received the seed (the word) which means they have it in their hands. Now, what will they do with this salvation they have been given? Decisions, decisions!

Those who have saving faith and are born again then produce fruit.

Now in verse 22 we see that the person who loves the world produces no fruit. Recall that John teaches (John 15) that unless you have been born again (Christ abides in you) you cannot produce fruit.

He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. Jn.15:2

"I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. Jn15:5&6

John 15 doesn't teach what you say. Verse two makes it clear there are those who are in Christ who do not produce fruit. As best as I can see throughout the whole chapter, it is dealing with believers only. There is no reference to unbelievers that I can find.

Verses 5 & 6 show us the "two way street" of the Christain life. Christ in us is not a guarantee of fruit production, we must also remain in Him. If a man doesn't remain in Christ, ie walking in the power of the Spirit, his Christain walk can be summed up as being worthless. For in verse 8 it is the fruit in our life that glorifies God and proves to others that we are indeed learning from Christ and not another spirit.

This is to my Father's glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples. Jn.15:

Now here's a question to whoever would like to answer.

"What makes for "good soil"?

peace (in pruning)

Van · Feb 22, 2006

Hi Sawdust, nice to hear from you again. Unless knowledge (receiving the gospel) is united with faith, God has not promised to give eternal life. The key is to understand when Jesus says whoever believes in Me, He means whoever believes in Me based on My reckoning. He reckons our faith as righteousness, He decides if it is heart-felt or rootless. Otherwise it would depend on the man that wills (Romans 9:16) and it does not. It depends on God. Recall that the demons believed.

God keeps His promises, but we must know what He is promising. Don't you think Judas heard the gospel and understood it? But He did not put his trust in Christ, his heart cherished the world's manna.

Picture a tightrope stretched across the Royal Gorge, more than 1000 feet above the Arkansas River. The wind is blowing. Now a showman says, who thinks I can wheel this wheel barrow across and back? Many will say, Yes, you can do it. Now he asks, How many believe I can wheel this 100 lbs sack of potatoes across? Next the showman asks, How many believe I can wheel a man or woman across and back? Again, picture many in the crowd saying "Yes you can." They have received the gospel. They believe it is true. But when they hear the showman say "Who is going to be first?" they shrink back. Believers do not fall away because of affliction. They affection for our Lord controls them. They do not value the things of this world, there affection is for our treasure in heaven.

Turning now to John 15, verse two. It does not teach what you say. Note it does not say every branch that abides in Me and I in Him. Verse two is referring to folks who have been enlightened with the gospel but it has not been united with faith. They are not born again. They are taken away. The ones He prunes have born fruit, so they are indwelt because only by being indwelt can a person bear the fruit of this passage, see verse 5.

The answer to the question, what makes good soil is cultivation.

GenemZ · Feb 22, 2006

Van said:
[/font]
This assertion is contrary to the plain reading of the passage. It is simply an effort to avoid the meaning of the passage.

When they discover how to put your brain in my head, then you have made a point.

In the mean time. The way you perceive it to be? Has got to be the right way. Fine.

I have endured enough of this. Some get it. Some do not. It is that plain and simple...... To me, anyway.

Now, have a nice Day.....

In Christ, GeneZ

Predestination: Concept or Doctrine

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