Predestination: Concept or Doctrine

cygnusx1 · Feb 16, 2006

Van said:
[/size]

Van said:
[/color][/font]

First of course I did not say the Lamb's book of life was generic. I said our names are entered when we are placed in Christ during our physical lifetime.
Both Revelation 13:8 and 17:8 indicate that names are written in the Lamb's book of Life from or since or after creation. The idea that names are entered before creation is counter to the plain reading of scripture.

Lets take many are called but few are chosen, this indicates from the group of called folks come the subset of chosen folks. This makes sense in light of folks who hear the gospel, and either are blinded by a love of darkness, or accept it superficially, a rootless faith, or cannot turn loose of their worldly treasures. They were all called, most enlightened, yet few are chosen based on God reckoning their faith as righteousness.

I know your belief makes sense to you. Mine makes sense to me. When we meet in heaven, one of us will say oops.

I think I am right that the same wording in scripture for the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world is the same as Those written in the Lamb's book of life from the foundation of the world , if this is the case I don't think you can argue it means after the fall in one case and not the other.

the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." Revelation 13:8

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=+1]Revelation 17:8 [/SIZE]

http://bible.cc/genesis/1-1.htm

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]

The beast that you saw was, and is not; and is about to come up out of the abyss and to go into destruction. Those who dwell on the earth and whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world will marvel when they see that the beast was, and is not, and shall be present. (WEB)

The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and is about to come up out of the abyss, and to go into perdition. And they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, they whose name hath not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast, how that he was, and is not, and shall come. (ASV)

The beast which you saw was, and is not; and is about to come up out of the great deep, and to go into destruction. And those who are on the earth, whose names have not been put in the book of life from the first, will be full of wonder when they see the beast, that he was, and is not, and still will be. (BBE)

The beast which thou sawest was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go into destruction: and they who dwell on the earth, whose names are not written from the founding of the world in the book of life, shall wonder, seeing the beast, that it was, and is not, and shall be present. (DBY)

The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. (KJV)

The beast that thou sawest, was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. (WBS)

"The Wild Beast which you have seen was, and is not, and yet is destined to re-ascend, before long, out of the bottomless pit and go his way into perdition. And the inhabitants of the earth will be filled with amazement--all whose names are not in the Book of Life, having been recorded there ever since the creation of the world--when they see the Wild Beast: because he was, and is not, and yet is to come. (WEY)

The beast that thou didst see: it was, and it is not; and it is about to come up out of the abyss, and to go away to destruction, and wonder shall those dwelling upon the earth, whose names have not been written upon the scroll of the life from the foundation of the world, beholding the beast that was, and is not, although it is. (YLT)

[/FONT]
[/FONT]
in either case , I notice genez main contention is that God doesn't need to wait for things to speak about them as though they are fixed , for to God's mind there can be no need to wait with a pen , and scripture does speak in multiple places of events that take place in time as being settled from eternity , God is not constrained by time ...... "before Abraham was , I am."

Van · Feb 16, 2006

Hi, whether you are talking about the Lamb slain or the book, its says from not before. The passage is a difficult one and hense the varying versions, but as you know, I stand by the folks who did the NASB and they render it "... whose name has not been written FROM the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain." Note this rendering is consistent with Revelation 17:8.

Turning now to the actions of God, as I have indicated many times, just because God has the capacity to do something, for everything is possible with God, does not indicate in the slightest that God did it, He does as He pleases, and is not constrained by the limitations on his behavior imposed by what manmade doctrine envisions.

GeneZ last contention I think was God is not capable of making a plan in general, but is compelled to foreordain the future in every detail. This says God is not all powerful and cannot create an unfixed by knowledge of the future, future. We have been all through this. God can do as He pleases, and His purpose in creation was to choose from fallen mankind a people who bring glory to God, and only if our choice is ours do we bring glory to God. I know you believe when a robot says I love you, he means it, but most folks think the idea is absurd.

sawdust · Feb 16, 2006

Van said:
Hi Sawdust, I have had that happen to me. Why is it when we put together our best stuff, does it go to electron heaven? God said we are to count it all joy, He did not say it would be easy.

Well I may be off track, but God's purpose in creation, does not address Christ, the second person of the Godhead, He was not created. Please read the passage that contains Isaiah 43:7 and tell me why God created mankind.[/FONT]

I read Isaiah 43:1-10 with your question in mind. My reponse would be that creation and salvation of men is summed up in verse 12:

I have revealed and saved and proclaimed
I, and not some foreign god among you.
You are my witnesses," declares the LORD, "that I am God.

That is the purpose as I see it. The Lord does all that He does so that His name is vindicated, He is shown to be the One True God.

I fail to see how you can say God's purpose in creation does not address Christ.

that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, Phil.2:10

To say the Christ is not created is not wholly true. He is both created and uncreated. This is why He is so unique. Fully God (uncreated) and fully man (created).

Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said:
"Sacrifice and offering you did not desire,
but a body you prepared for me; Heb.10:5

Christ is all! Take Him out of creation and all you are left with is nothing. No hope, no life, no love. My stomach is churning over just at the thought of being without Christ. Not only for my sake but for the sake of all. There is nothing apart from Him!

Whom have I in heaven but you?
And earth has nothing I desire besides you. Ps.73:25

I believe God's goal (purpose) is to be glorified above all because the reality is, He simply is above all. The formation of the church is a part of His plan to reach that goal. You seem to think God's purpose is to form a people for Himself and that everything He does revolves around men. (at least that is the impression I have.)

I don't know what else to say. (shrug)

peace

sawdust · Feb 16, 2006

Van said:
GeneZ last contention I think was God is not capable of making a plan in general, but is compelled to foreordain the future in every detail.

That was not what I understood him to say. It isn't that the Lord can't make general plans but rather the fact He knows all, from beginning to end, that He doesn't have to make general plans. All His plans can be worked out to the absoute smallest detail for any and all individuals.

Personally, I am not too proud to say that I do not have the level of faith that causes me to be certain of my future. I still find myself from time to time worrying about what might happen. Yet the scripture says: "The Lord is my Shepherd" and so, when I find myself worrying, I rest in that truth. What I find is the Lord is just amazing in what He is able to work out. And what I find most amazing, is not the big things He works out but it's the little things He brings together. To find His depth of concern regarding all those little details just astounds me and I think to myself ...." Oh ye of little faith woman!"

I really have to continue learning to do what Peter said.

Cast all your anxiety on him because he cares for you. 1Pet.5:7

Van · Feb 16, 2006

Not to put too fine a point on it, because we are close to agreement, is that mankind was created to glorify God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. This is what the passage says in Isaiah 43.

No, I am not on the side that thinks salvation or church creation is the purpose of God in creating mankind, I am with you in that the Bible teaches we were created to glorify God, and according to that purpose, God chooses those who bring glory to Him.

Van · Feb 16, 2006

Hi Sawdust, I will try again.

That was not what I understood him to say. It isn't that the Lord can't make general plans but rather the fact He knows all, from beginning to end, that He doesn't have to make general plans. All His plans can be worked out to the absoute smallest detail for any and all individuals.

First the verse says God declares the end from the beginning, he says what will happen then He makes it happen, which supports the idea of God implimenting His plan for the future. The reason why God might choose to make a general plan is that this provides us with a purview where we can make decisions, not dictated by God's detailed, exhaustive knowledge of the future, which brings glory to God.
So the issue is not what God is capable of, with one side saying my God is more powerful than your God, but what does scripture say it pleased God to do?

cygnusx1 · Feb 19, 2006

Van said:
I know you believe when a robot says I love you, he means it, but most folks think the idea is absurd.

Clay .......... not Robots is the scriptural analogy , and yes our Love for God has it's source in God.

Where there is obligation there is no 'free-will' , where there is no obligation there is a standard set for boasting .

Can love be commanded , the humanist says no , Scripture says yes!

Van · Feb 19, 2006

Clay formed into man and made alive by the breath of God, was made in the image or likeness of our decision making God. If you buy a pull string doll, and then pull the string, and the doll says I love you, do you feel glorified? I about when your toddler son climbed up on your lap, put his little arms around your neck and softly said, Daddy, I love you.

Glory to God in the highest...

cygnusx1 · Feb 19, 2006

Van said:
Clay formed into man and made alive by the breath of God, was made in the image or likeness of our decision making God. If you buy a pull string doll, and then pull the string, and the doll says I love you, do you feel glorified? I about when your toddler son climbed up on your lap, put his little arms around your neck and softly said, Daddy, I love you.

Glory to God in the highest...

well you may want to denegrate God's gift of Love by mocking using a pull string doll ............ I will just say I am glad that The Love Of God has been shed abroad in our hearts by The Holy Spirit , and not by our carnal nature ..... yes we love God by the power of His love.

I understand your view , I just don't go with it ...... it is just too humanistic and at odds from a Love that can be commanded........... and granted .

Solo Dei Gloria

GenemZ · Feb 20, 2006

sawdust said:
That was not what I understood him to say. It isn't that the Lord can't make general plans but rather the fact He knows all, from beginning to end, that He doesn't have to make general plans. All His plans can be worked out to the absoute smallest detail for any and all individuals.

God controls his plan by setting a limit to how may choices we are to make in our life. In that sense he sovereignly controls the plan. As far as knowing all there is to know about us? He already knows. He provides the circumstances for us making our choices in our lives to cause us to discover about ourselves what he always knew about us. His plan is to clarify to all men before the judgement/evaluation, the reasons for his judgement (unbeliever) and evaluation (believers) which will be made manifest to us in the future.

God knows someone is a real nerdy pain to be around. So? He has him born in an era when he can have a computer and go online to debate in forums. Why? To be a test for those who are growing in grace.

God did not make that person to be a nerdy pain. Yet, because he knows that person chooses to be out of his jealousy of others, God will use him by planning for him to live on earth at a certain time to be a tool in transforming those who are humble. God controls things like that. He chose when each one of us was to be born.

Acts 17:26 niv
"From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live."

Personally, I am not too proud to say that I do not have the level of faith that causes me to be certain of my future.

Yet, because God always knew you. You future is certain. Our purpose is to discover what he already knows, in the sense, that we discover what his perfect will is for our lives. Not everyone finds this. Too many seek their own wills in what they consider to be ideal.

Romans 12:2 niv
"Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will ishis good, pleasing and perfect will."

That transformation can only take place by growing in our knowledge of the Word of Truth. The traditions and rituals of men can never provide transformation. For they are too busy demanding conforming to a human standard.

2 Peter 3:18 niv
"But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever! Amen."

Growing in God's provision of enabling power given freely to the humble, and taking in knowledge of the Word made flesh, is an unbeatable combination of getting us to our goal. That is, to discover that we can know what God's perfect and pleasing will for our life is. Paul discovered it. For he said he knew that he had fought the good fight and had won. When he was younger in Christ he had inner conflicts and doubts.

I still find myself from time to time worrying about what might happen. Yet the scripture says: "The Lord is my Shepherd" and so, when I find myself worrying, I rest in that truth. What I find is the Lord is just amazing in what He is able to work out. And what I find most amazing, is not the big things He works out but it's the little things He brings together. To find His depth of concern regarding all those little details just astounds me and I think to myself ...." Oh ye of little faith woman!"

There will be times we have no idea what he is doing. It will be revealed after the fact, in retrospect, that he had done a work in us. Its those things we are not even aware of that are the most amazing. For when you are doing what is expected, unawares, it reveals that you have been transformed.

Making a list of "do's and don'ts" is just begging for conformity to just another form of legalism... even grace can be made into legalism if you set up expectations for grace before you discover it working in your life for yourself. For, grace will make you able to see grace working. For that is what grace does. It makes you able to understand something that you know you should not if left to your own natural way of reasoning.

Well..... Grace and peace, GeneZ

Van · Feb 20, 2006

Now I am charged with wanting to denigrate God's love. Folks, when you see a shift from addressing my position to addressing my character flaws and distortions of my position, view it as a white flag, they are done.

My view is unstated but is distorted by painting it with the broad brush of humanism. Never mind, my view represents what scripture actually teaches, and my opponents view is an argument from silence, an invention of man.

My opponent says love can be commanded, not meaning we are commanded to love God, but that God causes us irresistibly to love God, like a pull string doll. However, scripture says love do not demand its own way, God's love toward mankind was demonstrated when Christ died for us when we were yet sinners. God sets before us a choice between life and death and He exhorts us to be saved from this evil generation. He says "Here I am, Here I am" and streaches out his arm to Jew and Gentile alike. For God so loved the world that He gave His one of a kind Son, so that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life, and God has not foreordained who can believe and trust in and love God.
Love does not demand its own way.

Van · Feb 20, 2006

22 Then Paul stood in the midst of the Areopagus and said, “Men of Athens, I perceive that in all things you are very religious; 23 for as I was passing through and considering the objects of your worship, I even found an altar with this inscription:

TO THE UNKNOWN GOD.
Therefore, the One whom you worship without knowing, Him I proclaim to you: 24 God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands. 25 Nor is He worshiped with men’s hands, as though He needed anything, since He gives to all life, breath, and all things. 26 And He has made from one blood[a] every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings, 27 so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28 for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, ‘For we are also His offspring.’ 29 Therefore, since we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, something shaped by art and man’s devising. 30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, 31 because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.”

Paul was speaking to a Gentile nation, telling them God had established the time for their communities existence and the boundaries or extent of their communities dwellings. But even so, because their community lives in God, God is not far from them and they can reach out and find God. Not a god of manmade temples made of metal, but the judge of all men as demonstrated by the resurrection of Christ. Here I am, Here I am, whoever believes in me shall not perish but have eternal life.

GenemZ · Feb 20, 2006

Van said:
Now I am charged with wanting to denigrate God's love. Folks, when you see a shift from addressing my position to addressing my character flaws and distortions of my position, view it as a white flag, they are done.

My view is unstated but is distorted by painting it with the broad brush of humanism. Never mind, my view represents what scripture actually teaches, and my opponents view is an argument from silence, an invention of man.

Who was talking about you?

My view is unstated but is distorted by painting it with the broad brush of humanism.

It was unstated, because it was not directed towards you.

Now? If you were not referring to my post? Since you are guilty of doing the very same things you accuse your opponent of doing? I have no idea who you were referring to. That's so ironic... Who were you responsing to? Since you leave so much unstated, and did not quote from the post you were reacting to.

In Christ, GeneZ

Van · Feb 20, 2006

Hi GeneZ, post 212 was directed at your post. Post 211 was directed to the person who posted #209 addressed to me (in that I was quoted by name.) But I note, your last post had nothing to do with my position but rather a complaint about me being guilty of invented misdeeds.

sawdust · Feb 20, 2006

Van said:
Now I am charged with wanting to denigrate God's love. Folks, when you see a shift from addressing my position to addressing my character flaws and distortions of my position, view it as a white flag, they are done.

Frankly Van, who cares what you're "charged" with. The Son of God was charged with being of Satan! (Personally, it's at that point I wanted to rip the arms off the Pharisees. Up till then I just wanted to mess them up a little. )

I'm beginning to wonder what you're real motives are, asserting the Truth or proving yourself right?????

That's not an invitation for you to explain yourself or anything, just thinking out loud. Who and what you are is your business, between you and the Lord.

After reading yesterday's posts, I had to go back and read the opening post because I couldn't remember what this thread was suppose to be addressing. That's usually a good sign to be done with things.

So..... guess I'll see ya in the soup! (bring your own spoon. )

peace

Van · Feb 20, 2006

Hi Sawdust, I did my best to answer your questions supported by explicit scriptural references.

cygnusx1 · Feb 20, 2006

Van said:
Now I am charged with wanting to denigrate God's love. Folks, when you see a shift from addressing my position to addressing my character flaws and distortions of my position, view it as a white flag, they are done.

My view is unstated but is distorted by painting it with the broad brush of humanism. Never mind, my view represents what scripture actually teaches, and my opponents view is an argument from silence, an invention of man.

My opponent says love can be commanded, not meaning we are commanded to love God, but that God causes us irresistibly to love God, like a pull string doll. However, scripture says love do not demand its own way, God's love toward mankind was demonstrated when Christ died for us when we were yet sinners. God sets before us a choice between life and death and He exhorts us to be saved from this evil generation. He says "Here I am, Here I am" and streaches out his arm to Jew and Gentile alike. For God so loved the world that He gave His one of a kind Son, so that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life, and God has not foreordained who can believe and trust in and love God.
Love does not demand its own way.

it sounds like you are demanding your own way van , quite a rant!
are you sure someone didn't pull your string ..............take it easy brother.

and who said I was not meaning that we are to love God when God commands us to love Him?.............. I assume that is why we are commanded to love Him , but this is what happens when you get excited brother , you just get swept up in the heat of it ...... forgetting that God commanding someone to love Him is certainly a case of God insisting upon His own way!
Imagine a wife commanding her husband to love her , and then saying if you don't I will destroy you , and by the way , I don't demand my own way " we would be running away ........
God not only commands us to love him , but threatens us if we don't!
How do I know this ?
Scripture says "Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way," ... Proverbs 31:2............ wow!!! , so much for free choice and none obligation!

I know you don't like irresistable Grace because you think that God's Grace and beauty can be resisted , indeed it can , by those and only those who hate God ...when you have God's Love shed abroad in your heart it is consuming .... all saints are controlled by God's love ....... as it is written "for the Love of Christ constraineth us" ....... doesn't fit too well with the humanist version of love does it

Van · Feb 20, 2006

because you think that God's Grace and beauty can be resisted

If God wanted us to be pull string dolls, we would be pull string dolls, God is all powerful. The reason we can turn to God and trust in Christ is because God has created us and our environment to enable such behavior. For exactly the same reason we can be held accountable for our misdeeds, we are able to choose life or death, we are not pull string dolls.

GenemZ · Feb 21, 2006

Van said:
Hi GeneZ, post 212 was directed at your post. Post 211 was directed to the person who posted #209 addressed to me (in that I was quoted by name.) But I note, your last post had nothing to do with my position but rather a complaint about me being guilty of invented misdeeds.

Why are you not at least quoting a snippet of those posts you are responding to?

The way you post is confusing and misleading at times. A bad habit, perhaps? I may come back hours, or a day later, and its inconsiderate to make a comment following one post that preceded it, and not have it be known whom you are posting to. Learn to hit the QUOTE, button. Not simply hit the REPLY, button. Just edit it down to a short snippet if you have to. Otherwise, it becomes a source of disorder and confusion. At least, address the person by name. That would be the least you could do. Thanks.....

Grace and peace, GeneZ

cygnusx1 · Feb 21, 2006

Van said:
If God wanted us to be pull string dolls, we would be pull string dolls, God is all powerful. The reason we can turn to God and trust in Christ is because God has created us and our environment to enable such behavior. For exactly the same reason we can be held accountable for our misdeeds, we are able to choose life or death, we are not pull string dolls.

back to the string dolls eh ..........

man is under bounden duty , it is essential , imperative, incumbent on , indissoluble, irrevocable, mandatory, obligatory, required, requisite, to love God , if there is no obligation then you would have

arbitrary, discretional, elective, free, noncompulsory, not required, open, unforced, unrestricted, volitional, voluntary love !!!

that is why we read

"for the Love of Christ constraineth us"

2 Cor. 5:14-15, "For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died; and He died for all, that they who live should no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf."

some versions use that wonderful word 'Compel' instead of 'control' in 2 Cor5:14

God Bless!

Predestination: Concept or Doctrine

Jacob the twister.....

Contributor

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Contributor

Contributor

Jacob the twister.....

Contributor

Jacob the twister.....

Well-Known Member

Contributor

Contributor

Well-Known Member

Contributor

Well-Known Member

Contributor

Jacob the twister.....

Contributor

Well-Known Member

Jacob the twister.....

Similar threads

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency