Predestination: Concept or Doctrine

[Van]

Usually when someone mentions "predestination" they do not have the biblical concept in mind, but rather the Reformed doctrine. The concept is that no plan of God can be thwarted, thus what God purposes and plans is predestined to occur. Thus the concept can be applied to any prophecy, for when God promises something, He fulfills it, He causes it to happen. Take Christ dying on the cross. According to 1 Peter 1:19-20, God knew before the foundation of the world, hence before creation, that Christ would shed His blood as a Lamb. This meshes well with Peter's words in Acts 2:23 which say Jesus the Nararene was "delivered over by the predestined plan and foreknowledge of God...." So Christ's death, his shedding of blood, was God's plan from before the creation. So while the Jews conspired and the Romans drove the nails, no one took Christ's life, He laid it down because of the command of His Father, John 10:18. Behold the Lamb of God...

 

[msortwell]

Usually when someone mentions "predestination" they do not have the biblical concept in mind, but rather the Reformed doctrine. The concept is that no plan of God can be thwarted, thus what God purposes and plans is predestined to occur. Thus the concept can be applied to any prophecy, for when God promises something, He fulfills it, He causes it to happen. Take Christ dying on the cross. According to 1 Peter 1:19-20, God knew before the foundation of the world, hence before creation, that Christ would shed His blood as a Lamb. This meshes well with Peter's words in Acts 2:23 which say Jesus the Nararene was "delivered over by the predestined plan and foreknowledge of God...." So Christ's death, his shedding of blood, was God's plan from before the creation. So while the Jews conspired and the Romans drove the nails, no one took Christ's life, He laid it down because of the command of His Father, John 10:18. Behold the Lamb of God...

And who was responsible for (i.e., morally accountable for) the conspiracy and for the driving of the nails?

Mike

 

[Van]

What does scripture say? Acts 4:23-28 indicates their actions were dictated by God. And so can their guilt for these acts carried out under the guiding influence of God be added to the wrath they face if they did not obtain mercy? What does scripture say. We will be judged based on what we know, and so to the extent they were ignorant (Acts 3:17-18) they will not be punished. What is Paul's answer to the question given in Romans 9:19? Is it not "Do not judge God" for He will sort out how to give these folks perfect justice after He uses them or endures them to bring the gospel to the lost.

 

[cygnusx1]

What does scripture say? Acts 4:23-28 indicates their actions were dictated by God. And so can their guilt for these acts carried out under the guiding influence of God be added to the wrath they face if they did not obtain mercy? What does scripture say. We will be judged based on what we know, and so to the extent they were ignorant (Acts 3:17-18) they will not be punished. What is Paul's answer to the question given in Romans 9:19? Is it not "Do not judge God" for He will sort out how to give these folks perfect justice after He uses them or endures them to bring the gospel to the lost.

It seems to me that these murderers were guilty of shedding the blood of an innocent man , they did not know it was God's Son , however , it is plain that scripture says it was wicked hands that crucified Christ , and it was the very worst of sins.

Should proof be required one needs only look at Jesus prayer for them , a prayer that would not be needed if no sin had been commited .

It seems you are having difficulty with the Scriptural; concept of God foreordaining sin and then charging the sinner for the crime.

 

[holdon]

According to 1 Peter 1:19-20, God knew before the foundation of the world, hence before creation, that Christ would shed His blood as a Lamb.

This verse does not say that Christ was foreknown to shed His blood. (although that may very well be true.) It says that Christ was foreknown.
So, one should not be building any theories as to "God planning sin" on this verse...

1:19 but by precious blood, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot, the blood of Christ, 1:20 foreknown indeed before the foundation of the world, but who has been manifested at the end of times for your sakes,

 

[Van]

Holdon, the text is clear. God knew before the foundation of the world, before creation, of the blood of Christ. And Christ's blood was shed for the forgiveness of sin. 1 Peter provides the evidence of "when God knew and had chosen Christ" before the foundation of the world, and Acts 2 provides evidence of what was know about Christ, the plan was that he was to be crucified. Behold the lamb of God. Note that we were chosen in Him, which means He was chosen to be the Redeemer of the lost, before the foundation of the world, Ephesians 1:4.

I would be happy to consider an alternate view.

 

[holdon]

Holdon, the text is clear. God knew before the foundation of the world, before creation, of the blood of Christ.

No. Emphatically no, that's not what it says. God foreknew Christ before the foundation of the world. That's what the text says.

Your inference that God (!) had planned sin to enter this world cannot be based on this text.

The "foreknown" of v.20 refers back to the last noun in v.19: Christ.

This is how NET bible has it:
1:19 but by precious blood like that of an unblemished and spotless lamb, namely Christ.
1:20 He was foreknown36 before the foundation of the world but37 was manifested in these last times38 for your sake.

This is what Robertson commented on it:
Who was foreknown indeed (proegnwsmenou men). Perfect passive participle (in genitive singular agreeing with Cristou) of proginwskw, old verb, to know beforehand (Romans 8:29; 2 Peter 3:17). See prognwsin qeou in verse 1 Peter 1:2. Before the foundation of the world (pro katabolhß kosmou). This precise curious phrase occurs in John 17:24 in the Saviour's mouth of his preincarnate state with the Father as here and in Ephesians 1:4. We have apo katabolhß kosmou in Matthew 25:34 (kosmou omitted in Matthew 13:35); Luke 11:50; Hebrews 4:3; Hebrews 9:26; Revelation 13:8; Revelation 17:8. Katabolh (from kataballw) was originally laying the foundation of a house (Hebrews 6:1). The preincarnate Messiah appears in the counsels of God also in 1 Corinthians 2:7; Colossians 1:26; Ephesians 1:9; Ephesians 3:9-11; Romans 16:25; 1 Timothy 1:9.

 

[Van]

Holdon, what you posted supports my position, not yours.

Who was foreknown indeed (proegnwsmenou men). Perfect passive participle (in genitive singular agreeing with Cristou) of proginwskw, old verb, to know beforehand (Romans 8:29; 2 Peter 3:17).

What this says is Christ was known beforehand, before the foundation of the world, before creation.

Before the foundation of the world (pro katabolhß kosmou). This precise curious phrase occurs in John 17:24 in the Saviour's mouth of his preincarnate state with the Father as here and in Ephesians 1:4.

This not only points to Christ in His preincarnate state, it points to Christ in His preincarnate state before creation. In other words, the Word was chosen to be the Lamb of God before creation. See Ephesians 1:4. It is impossibe to be chosen in Him before the foundation of the world unless He was chosen to be our Redeemer who would give His life as a ransom for all. We would not need a redeemer unless the fall was foreknown.

Your inference that God (!) had planned sin to enter this world cannot be based on this text.

That is right but I actually provided three verses to support the conclusion, so to address only one alters my argument.

Here is a question for you, why were we chosen in Christ, if the need to be in Christ was not part of God's purpose and plan from before the foundation of the world.

 

[Seaioth]

Would you like the Arminian answer or the reformed one?=p
Having a "Biblical answer" is a really tossed around term nowadays, where everybody claims to have the correct hermeneutical approach... and declare the other damnable heresy, or for the sake of unity feign/delude themselves to have an open and tolerant mind, whether that be geunine conviction or spinelessness

Both will claim that theirs is biblical , but may the Holy Spirit illumen your mind as you test what the opinion of man says with scripture...I'd advise reading the verses they offer, and lean not on your own (or others) understanding

 

[Van]

While some of my views are consistent with Arminian views, and other of my views are consistent with Calvinist views, I like to think they represent my understanding of the biblical text. Individual bible study with prayer and meditation is good, but we should also seek the views of others such that we give the opportunity of the Holy Spirit to speak to us through others. We are part of a team, with the more mature players helping the less mature players. But because some folks present mistaken ideas about scripture, the bible tells us to check what is said to see if it is consistent with the word.

 

[holdon]

Holdon, what you posted supports my position, not yours.

No, because your inference drawn on 1 Pt 1:19,20 was that and I quote you: "God knew before the foundation of the world, hence before creation, that Christ would shed His blood as a Lamb".
But that is not what the text says at all. Vs 19 speaks of the blood of the unblemished Lamb and ends with that that Lamb was Christ. Vs 20 then says that Christ (NOT the blood of the Lamb) was foreknown before the foundation of the world.
This is important to distinguish, because "blood" was need to expiate sin, and if "blood" was foreknown then sin would have to be necessarily be in the plans of God. Which is rather blasphemous to suppose that God could have planned sin. The thing He abhors the most.

What this says is Christ was known beforehand, before the foundation of the world, before creation.

That is correct. Christ was known. See also Jn 17:24. But it is not said that "the blood" (as a means to expiate sin) was known before the foundation of the world.

This not only points to Christ in His preincarnate state, it points to Christ in His preincarnate state before creation. In other words, the Word was chosen to be the Lamb of God before creation.

No, that is not "in other words" but a completely different thought and not in Scripture.

See Ephesians 1:4. It is impossibe to be chosen in Him before the foundation of the world

Why not? Being chosen has nothing to do with sin or no sin. Had Adam (and we) not sinned, we would still be chosen.

unless He was chosen to be our Redeemer

I think you are confused. We were chosen and now you jump that He was chosen.

who would give His life as a ransom for all. We would not need a redeemer unless the fall was foreknown.

But where does it say that He was a Redeemer or foreknown to be one before the fall?

Here is a question for you, why were we chosen in Christ, if the need to be in Christ was not part of God's purpose and plan from before the foundation of the world.

See my answers above.

 

[Van]

Holdon, The only reason to be chosen in Him is that He was chosen.

We are chosen in Him.
If He was not chosen, we would not be in Him.
There is no reason I can think of why we would be chosen in Him except for the purpose of being redeemed by our Redeemer. Otherwise the verse would just say we were chosen, and that is not what it says or means.

 

[holdon]

Holdon, The only reason to be chosen in Him is that He was chosen.

We are chosen in Him.
If He was not chosen, we would not be in Him.
There is no reason I can think of why we would be chosen in Him except for the purpose of being redeemed by our Redeemer. Otherwise the verse would just say we were chosen, and that is not what it says or means.

You still think that redemption means election. It does not. Christ Himself was not redeemed....

 

[Van]

No, Holdon, I do not think redemption means election. When the Word was chosen to be the Christ, He, the Word, was chosen to be our Redeemer, He, the Word was chosen to be the Lamb of God. Hence, anyone redeemed by Christ, anyone who receives the reconciliation, was chosen in Him before the foundation of the World. When God accepts our faith, during our physical life, when God reckons our faith as righteousness, God places us in Christ, which is our individual election unto salvation. So the question is when did God choose the Word as the Christ? When do you say???????????

To repeat my position, the Word was chosen to be the Lamb of God before the foundation of the world, from all eternity. Therefore, before creation, God's purpose and plan for creation included the fall and the reconciliation.

 

[sawdust]

You still think that redemption means election. It does not. Christ Himself was not redeemed....

What do you mean by "Christ was not redeemed"?

I thought redemption means to be "brought back from" and this is what indeed happened to Him, inasmuch that He was brought back from death.

I do not understand what might be in your thinking to say what you have. If you could explain a little more, I would be very grateful. Thanks.

peace

 

[Van]

The idea of redemption is to be purchased or ransomed out of bondage ( our separated from God, sinful, corrupted, unholy state in Adam). Because Christ died for all mankind, all of us were bought so to speak, Christ ransomed all mankind. This is the general redemption or reconciliation of mankind. But this saved nobody, only by receiving this reconciliation by grace through faith, are we saved.

But what is being discussed is the idea of when did God know that the Anointed One, the Christ, the Messiah would need to redeem the lost. I say before the foundation of the world, because I believe both the fall of mankind and our reconciliation were part of God's purpose and plan for creation.

Holdon rejects the idea that God arranged the fall, and so he is asserting that even though God knew Christ before the foundation of the world, He did not plan for the fall, Christ was chosen for some other purpose before the fall, and then after the fall, the purpose of the Christ was altered to include redemption. Not a view with much going for it. Scripture says God knew beforehand as part of God's predestined plan, that Christ would suffer on the cross, and I think it logically follows that when Christ was chosen, He was chosen for the purpose of redemption, it was not an afterthought.

 

[holdon]

No, Holdon, I do not think redemption means election. When the Word was chosen to be the Christ, He, the Word, was chosen to be our Redeemer, He, the Word was chosen to be the Lamb of God.

You have simply no basis from Scripture for that.

And you make it worse by saying that God intended sin and evil to enter the world. Like I had feared you would....

 

[holdon]

What do you mean by "Christ was not redeemed"?

I thought redemption means to be "brought back from" and this is what indeed happened to Him, inasmuch that He was brought back from death.

I do not understand what might be in your thinking to say what you have. If you could explain a little more, I would be very grateful. Thanks.

peace

Christ has always been sinless. Therefore He cannot be redeemed. He is the Redeemer.

 

[holdon]

Scripture says God knew beforehand as part of God's predestined plan, that Christ would suffer on the cross,

Where??? You cannot find anywhere in Scripture that God knew before that Fall that Christ would suffer on the cross.

 

[Van]

Holdon rejects the idea that God arranged the fall, and so he is asserting that even though God knew Christ before the foundation of the world, He did not plan for the fall, Christ was chosen for some other purpose before the fall, and then after the fall, the purpose of the Christ was altered to include redemption. Not a view with much going for it. Scripture says God knew beforehand as part of God's predestined plan, that Christ would suffer on the cross (Acts 4:27-28), and I think it logically follows that when Christ was chosen, He was chosen for that purpose of redemption, it was not an afterthought.

When did God choose Christ, and what was the purpose? Still waiting! I say before the foundation of the world for the purpose of redemption, Ephesians 1:4.