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The thing is, if it can be known for fact that X will do Y then X is forced to do Y whether or not it is predicted or not, since if it can be predicted as 100% fact that way it obviously can't be predicted as 100% fact any other way.
If God has perfect knowledge of the future then the universe is deterministic as otherwise how could he have perfect knowledge of the future if it has not been determined yet?
I guess you could always have some quantum-god-mechanics type spinoff where the future is nondeterministic unless God decides to look at some aspect of the future which then fixes it in stone. Ponder the consequences of that kind of structure.
EDIT: Oh, and concerning 'warning' prophecies; if they never come to pass (are avoided), how do we know that it wasn't deterministic and guaranteed to not pass anyway?
So you really didn't mean it when you said, "the point is, God knows what we will do." Is there anything else you've said that you don't mean? Because it's pretty hard to give credence to anything someone says when it's likely they don't mean it. And, the predestination we're talking about has nothing to do with uttered prophecies.Idea said:Honestly, I do not know if God chooses to see it all or not.
And I agree, but only in the sense that we are the agents (a specific instance) of a continuing chain of cause and effect. Our "determination" of anything is simply the next cause resulting from the accumulated effects that bear on us up to that point. We determine the next effect only because we cannot do any differently. If we could do differently then we have to ask why we didn't. And whatever that reason may be is the inevitable cause of our doing X rather than Y, which in turn was created by previously accumulated effects. The only other option is that our "determinations" are utterly random, springing out of nowhere. So far, no one has been able to show how our acts can be anything but determined or utterly random. And simply shouting out "Free Will" is not good enough. If the will is somehow free of all cause and randomness---the common definition in this context--- I invite you or anyone else to explain its operation.We are the ones who determine what our future will be...
The future is set in stone because it is the result of all the preceding cause/effect operations.The point is, if the future is set in stone, (if - I do not know that it is, or what "future" is with no time) it is not set in stone by God.
Yes. You may think you can change it by deciding differently, but the "deciding differently" is actually excluded by those causes that led to the actual outcome.We dictate our own future - not God. Do we have free agency? Are we just the way we are, and nothing can change it?
Might be a nice comforting thought, but logic says otherwise. The choosing "whatever we will" is actually doing what has been determined by all the cause/effect events that led up to the so-called "choosing." They determine that one, and only one, outcome is possible. Of course, if there's such an animal as true free will then I invite you or anyone else to explain its operation. Exactly in what manner does the will operate free of all cause? And, I don't think Bible verses are going to cut it.The atonement gives us options that we did not have before - through the atonement, we can actually change who we are. We have free will, God has set us free to change and choose whatever we will.
If the future is set in stone, even if it's not by God, how can we have free choice since we can only achieve one outcome?The point is, if the future is set in stone, (if - I do not know that it is, or what "future" is with no time) it is not set in stone by God. We dictate our own future - not God. Do we have free agency? Are we just the way we are, and nothing can change it? The atonement gives us options that we did not have before - through the atonement, we can actually change who we are. We have free will, God has set us free to change and choose whatever we will.
Gal 4:1 STAND fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
Might be a nice comforting thought, but logic says otherwise. The choosing "whatever we will" is actually doing what has been determined by all the cause/effect events that led up to the so-called "choosing." They determine that one, and only one, outcome is possible. Of course, if there's such an animal as true free will then I invite you or anyone else to explain its operation. Exactly in what manner does the will operate free of all cause? And, I don't think Bible verses are going to cut it.
My questions
If God knows that Jeremiah is going to be obedient to Him before he was born, does that mean that Jeremiah is predestined?
Does this mean that we are all predestined to a certain life one a sinner and one a saint?
Does this mean that God has perfect knowledge of the future?
If God does have this perfect knowledge, then how can we have free will?
Do we have free will?
Comments?
1. Yes, we are all predestined.
2. Yes.
3. Yes.
4. Our free will is very limited.
For instance, can God sin? It is not in his nature to sin and he is literally incapable of sinning.
God does not have free will to do anything. He can't create another being like himself.
God has always been so if he created something like him, it would have always been.
5. Not really. We have a limited free will when it comes to our eternal destiny. What if you were born in a tribe in the middle of Africa and never heard about God or Jesus or anything? What if you were born mentally retarted and were inacapable of understanding anything presented to you? Who decides where you are born or what mental state you are in? God. We don't choose. It says in the Bible that the Father has to draw us. If we are not drawn, then we cannot come to Jesus and ultimately be saved. God knows exactly everything that will happen. It says in the Bible he already has our names written in the book of life.
Is this Bizarro-Philosophy? I distinctly remember you telling me that "I" is a cause, and then me asking you what "I" is.
When did you challenge me to provide an example of a cause? I can tell you what might have caused the dinosaurs to die en masse at various levels of abstraction. Is that good enough?
Stepping away from the issue of our having free will or not, if we do not have free will, is there an advantage to our understanding we do not have free will? If we do not have free will, can we chose to understand we do not have free will? Will we live different lives or make different choices if we understand we do not have free will? How will our lives appear different to others if we understand we do not have free will?
In a very trivial sense. We can "choose" inasmuch as there is more than one mutually exclusive thing we may believe at any moment. But as per usual, I can't ascribe any meaningful activity to the process of choosing.Stepping away from the issue of our having free will or not, if we do not have free will, is there an advantage to our understanding we do not have free will? If we do not have free will, can we chose to understand we do not have free will?
That requires the type of foresight only present in fantasy.Will we live different lives or make different choices if we understand we do not have free will? How will our lives appear different to others if we understand we do not have free will?
I am seeing in that response no advantage to recognizing the lack of free will on our part, and no change in our behavior. To me this makes the discussion purly esoteric. Do you agree?In a very trivial sense. We can "choose" inasmuch as there is more than one mutually exclusive thing we may believe at any moment. But as per usual, I can't ascribe any meaningful activity to the process of choosing.
That requires the type of foresight only present in fantasy.
Personally, I don't seem to be able to think like the simplistic automaton we often imagine the free-will-less being to be. I still behave as if I make "choices," but it all falls apart when I examine choice with any kind of critical eye.
What I keep coming back to is that I simply don't know what free will is or even what it could be. As far as I can tell, all we have are a bunch of words that at best describe the absence of something; to wit: "free will" is often said to be the choice in the absence of external coercion. Well, great. That tells me what free will isn't. I still don't know what "choice" is.I am seeing in that response no advantage to recognizing the lack of free will on our part, and no change in our behavior. To me this makes the discussion purly esoteric. Do you agree?
I am seeing agreement with my statment. Am I misunderstanding?What I keep coming back to is that I simply don't know what free will is or even what it could be. As far as I can tell, all we have are a bunch of words that at best describe the absence of something; to wit: "free will" is often said to be the choice in the absence of external coercion. Well, great. That tells me what free will isn't. I still don't know what "choice" is.
No for the umtieenth time I am not and never have argued that free will is operating outside of cause and effect. I have consistently argued I am one of the causes and that being the case free will is alive and well. We have pretty well agreed that we cannot agree on that. How do you feel about the point that if there is no free will, it matters not at all in the way we live, since we all live as if we had free will?TeddyKGB,
The problem is, the concept of free will is never explained except in terms of what it is not: Free will is a will not operating by means of cause/effect. But just how it does operate is conveniently never explained. For Christians, or any free willer, it's enough just to throw the term on the table, stand back with arms folded, and say, There!
Hardly an argument for it, but then free willers don't expect to defend their claim anyway. It's more of a "That's the way it is, and because we say it is we expect you to agree," kind of attitude.
Go figure.
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