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Predatory Christianity

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ragarth

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I recently read an article about a Christian family who took in a French exchange student. They prayed and prayed to make a decision, then talked to each other and decided to do it. They chose a girl named Marine, who was a 15 year old agnostic from rural Paris. To give an example of what they subjected this girl to, they pressured her into participating in their religion, using tears and ultimatums to their advantage.

Considering how vulnerable an exchange student can be, their isolation from friends, family, everything they know, their limited english vocabulary, and their dependence upon the surrogate family, it's no wonder that Marine was brain washed by these predators. In short, these Christians took advantage of a young and impressionable girl's vulnerability and situation to make her conform to their philosophical beliefs, and that is the crux of why I consider their act despiccable. Would the family have been okay if their child were turned Atheist by a family in Europe? I'm guessing the answer's would be no since the fact that they believe the creation museum is accurate points to their being fundamentalist.

Minds and Hearts Changed through Creation Ministry | Around the World with AiG’s Ken Ham

So I ask you, is it right for Christians to prey upon vulnerable children to spread their beliefs?
Is it right for anyone to prey on vulnerable children to spread their beliefs?
Do you think Atheists prey upon children?
Do you think Gays prey upon children?

Please explain your answers fully, and for extra credit explain how you feel I'm right or wrong in describing this example family as predators and despiccable.
 
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ragarth

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I'll start off:

So I ask you, is it right for Christians to prey upon vulnerable children to spread their beliefs?

No, it's the right of the parent to raise a child as they wish so long as said upbringing is not dangerous or burdensome to society or to the child.

Is it right for anyone to prey on vulnerable children to spread their beliefs?

Probably no, it's the right of the parent to raise a child as they wish so long as said upbringing is not dangerous or burdensome to society or to the child. This said, I cannot imagine every conceivable situation where someone might try to convince a child not within their custody of something, and so I am open to potential unknown reasons why this may be important- perhaps if the child's beliefs are the product of brain washing by their caretakers, or if the parents are physically/mentally abusive to the child, then intervention may be necessary. Another sticky point is that in the classroom it's impossible to not convey some things without crossing the boundary into something that a parent may object to, but this is not a predatory situation since the child still maintains the support structure of the home environment each day- The environment is not sufficiently submersive as to make the child vulnerable.

Do you think Atheists prey upon children?

No, atheists are not interested in converting children, this seems to be entirely the purview of sexual predators and Christians from what I've seen. Atheists as the minority in most places are more concerned with equal rights, and since most atheists seem to be as equally against strong atheism as they are against strong theism, there is a moral pressure to not prey upon children to spread atheism.

Do you think Gays prey upon children?

No, I'm gay and I don't prey upon children, I know of no gay individuals who prey upon children- they all seem quite happy to prey upon each other. Seriously though, male gays are attracted to physical traits that children do not possess, and since most cases of paedophilia are about control this gives significant aversion to gays going after children. Most cases of paedophilia take place between an adult male and either a young female or male, with the vast majority of the adult males being heterosexual in their adult relationships.

Please explain your answers fully, and for extra credit explain how you feel I'm right or wrong in describing this example family as predators and despicable.

I feel I'm right, this is reflexive. I think I am right because I think what I think is right.
 
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Supernaut

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JustMeSee

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So I ask you, is it right for Christians to prey upon vulnerable children to spread their beliefs?

No, it is not right for anyone to prey on anyone else, but I don't consider what most Christian do as preying. It is more like recruiting.

I feel that it was wrong, in the example story, for the family to pressure the girl to go to church against her wishes. But I wouldn't go as far as to say that they were predators.

Some of the tactics that Christians use are questionable. To invite a teenager to a Christian event, where they may be exposed to aspects of the religion, is acceptable, but to proselytize and pressure them to believe and/or convert to Christianity is wrong. And yes, I would say that this is bordering on predatory behavior.

Is it right for anyone to prey on vulnerable children to spread their beliefs?

I don't have a problem with people sharing their religious beliefs with teenagers, as long as they are not pressing them to convert. There is a very fine line. While I believe introducing teens to alternate religions is tolerable, some of the tactics used to bring in new recruits and gradually brainwash them is wrong.

Do you think Atheists prey upon children?

Generally, I would say no. There may be examples of atheists pushing their belief that there are no gods, but they don't us the same tactics as religious folk.

Do you think Gays prey upon children?

I don't believe the vast majority of homosexuals prey on children. I have never seen evidence to say otherwise.

----
I have mixed feelings on the subject, so I am probably all over the place with my opinions. It really comes down to individual cases and practices.

While I feel that the parents in the story were wrong in their pressuring the girl to go to church, they were her legal guardians. It is a risk that her French parents made when they sent their daughter to the exchange program.

The details of the story were absent. If she was pressured to convert to Christianity, I feel strongly against it. If she was moved by the experience on her own, I have no problem with it.
 
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Inviolable

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ragarth said:
Please explain your answers fully, and for extra credit explain how you feel I'm right or wrong in describing this example family as predators and despiccable.
Click to expand...
You did a horrible job.
Granted they prayed and prayed and the lady Karen cried and Marine felt pressured to go to church.
But Marine, the french student, became a Christian "after" she left the Christian family and it didn't happen until the "next" summer. After Marine invited the Christian family to visit her own family.

Which was something else you left out.
If as you said, she was forced through emotional trauma put on her by this Christian family and Marine's parents would be angry, then why didn't they express their anger when the Christian family went to France?
Why did her sister become a Christian and why did Marine ask them if they wanted to go to church when they got to France?

E-
 
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Mystman

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The situation presented here is pretty bad. The girl and her family assumed that she was going to a 'neutral' place to eat/sleep while going to school in the US.

The American family on the other hand, seemed to have planned this entire endeavour with the express purpose of converting children to Christianity. They weren't interested in providing a nice home for exchange students, they were just interested in getting easy access to easy targets.

Even when ignoring the morality of pushing a child towards a certain religion, the deceit by these Americans makes the whole operation immoral. It's a bit like a dance instructor pretending to want to teach children how to dance, but actually receiving sexual gratification from touching the kids. Or like someone who pretends to just have a casual conversation, but who actually started the whole conversation to steer it towards some secret/sensitive piece of information.

(example of the last... a classmate of mine once had a secret question on her Hotmail of "what's my grandmother's second name?". I started talking to her, steered the conversation to second names, how my name and my dad's name and my grandfather's name are all related, how I didn't know the second name of my grandmother... and tada, I owned another email account. Gave it back the next day. I was 14, and still agnostic )
 
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Verv

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It's positive to share religion with other people but using ultimatums and "tears" to achieve the goal is wrong.

Anyone who exploits someone who is in such a weaker position and forces something on someone like that, is wrong.

I do not know the whole story but I do not doubt the account of the story and I imagine that such a thig could have happened.

However, this is hardly a topic for a thread.

It is more just COMPLAINING.

Who here is going to argue that you should use tears and ultimatums to a vulnerable person to become a Christian?
 
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ragarth

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Inviolable said:
You did a horrible job.
...
Why did her sister become a Christian and why did Marine ask them if they wanted to go to church when they got to France?

E-
Click to expand...

Thank you for your response, would you mind answering the other questions as well?

Verv said:
However, this is hardly a topic for a thread.

It is more just COMPLAINING.

Who here is going to argue that you should use tears and ultimatums to a vulnerable person to become a Christian?
Click to expand...

The given story was an example situation, it's indicative of a larger issue- Many Christians seem to feel their beliefs are being attacked, that atheists/gays/others are attempting to steal their children when it is in actuality these very Christians who are using the tactics they rail against.

Further, I have no doubt that there are people on this board who believe that spreading Christianity by any means possible is appropriate or that atheists/gays are preying on their children, read enough posts in Ethics & Morality and you'll see them. The question is, are they willing to admit it to a direct question? If they are willing to do so, it will make interesting debate.

You are fully correct, however, that if an oppositional opinion does not develop on at least one of the questions I stated then this thread will have failed in its purpose and a core theme for the debate will not develop. This is a risk I take when I make these types of threads, but when they pan out the debate is usually very interesting.
 
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brightmorningstar

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Its a good question ragarth.
But would you be happy for her to have been brainwashed into being an agnostic. I am not saying she was just whether you would be happy for that either?
Society is generlly brainwhasing people into evolution as I have recently highlighted I believe with the school text books of the peppermoths.

The answer to your question is no, faith in Christ is a choice.
 
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JustMeSee

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Evolution is a scientific theory. Its research goes far beyond the study of pepper moths. It is based upon observable evidence. I would not consider educating to be likened to brain washing. Education encourages people to think critically and form their own opinions.
 
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b&wpac4

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brightmorningstar said:
Society is generlly brainwhasing people into evolution as I have recently highlighted I believe with the school text books of the peppermoths.
Click to expand...

Just like society brainwashed people into believing the Earth orbited the Sun, that it was round, and that there were not pillars upon which it sat!
 
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ragarth

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The girl wasn't brain washed into agnosticism, either her parents provided her with that view point, in which case you're arguing that all religious views are the product of parental brain washing, or she came to an agnostic decision herself, in which case it's the exact opposite of brain washing.

Regardless, if she's turned into an agnostic by someone other than her parents in a coercive situation (weird thought there, "I'm going to make you not make a decision!"), then I would certainly disagree with it.

Since I'm not privy to your argument on whether evolution is brain washing, I cannot effectively produce an argument against a bald-faced assertion without merit.
 
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brightmorningstar

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To ragarth,
As to your first paragraph I suggest we agree, depending on the parents they provide an agnostic or religious view and the child may be free to choose.

Since I'm not privy to your argument on whether evolution is brain washing, I cannot effectively produce an argument against a bald-faced assertion without merit, you also provide no premise to tie your assertion to any of the topics of this thread.
Click to expand...
Opinion as to whether evolution is brainwashing is provided by my example of the peppermoths.
 
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b&wpac4

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brightmorningstar said:
To b&wpac4,
Yes just like society brainwashed people into believing in heilocentrism! Exactly that, both Christians and scientists.
Click to expand...

So.. uh... you don't believe that the Earth orbits the Sun?

BTW I revised my post upon realizing that heilocentrism is the belief that the Sun is the center of the Universe, so if that's what you are pointing out, thank you. If not...

So.. uh... you don't believe that the Earth orbits the Sun?
 
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ragarth

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I think what brightmorningstar is trying to say is that he believes any form or transmission of information that changes a given individual's views is brain washing. So if I were to show you proof that asphalt contains carbon, and you previously didn't believe that asphalt contained carbon but you do now believe this, then I would have brainwashed you into the belief that asphalt contains carbon. It doesn't matter if you were or were not under duress (heliocentric theory wasn't spread through duress), or if the information is factual or not (heliocentric theory is factual).
 
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b&wpac4

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ragarth said:
I think what brightmorningstar is trying to say is that he believes any form or transmission of information that changes a given individual's views is brain washing.
Click to expand...

I bet he doesn't believe it is brain washing if it takes place in a Church.
 
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ragarth

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I know pepper-moths are a popular subject for hereditary experiments, I do not know your argument as to why pepper-moths prove that evolution is brainwashing. To my knowledge pepper-moths are not possessing of psychic powers, are neither the originators or henchmen of evolution conspiracies, and do not kidnap children in the dark of the night to inject with with sodium pentathol so they can convince them of the theory of evolution. Given this I can only conclude that there is not some grand pepper-moth conspiracy, only individual lone-gunman pepper-moths acting on their own to spread these terrible lies.
 
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ragarth

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b&wpac4 said:
I bet he doesn't believe it is brain washing if it takes place in a Church.
Click to expand...

Just because someone believes in an overly broad definition of brainwashing doesn't mean they agree with all brainwashing. He has stated that he agrees with a parent's rights to 'brainwash' their child (as defined under this definition), but he does not agree with someone brainwashing a child to a given belief set outside that which the parent's are okay with. Given this, we can conclude that brightmorningstar believes in a range of brainwashing with many shades of grey, some of which are appropriate and some of which are not. There's nothing wrong with this (except it muddies discussions due to unclear language), people who define things in different ways can agree morally on several things even though they define the nature of the scenarios differently.

He may think X is brainwashing and I may think X is not brainwashing, but we may both agree that X is an okay situation to put a subject in.
 
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