Pre-Tribulation Rapture Refuted with Scripture

tdidymas said:

Not sure what your point is, I don't see my question answered. It looks to me like it is speaking of Jesus coming "as a thief" at His 2nd coming, in which the world as it is now will be destroyed. Doesn't look like a pre-trib rapture to me. Do I miss your point?
TD

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You are correct.
I am not a pretribber.

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BABerean2 said:

The following is the first resurrection found in John chapter 5.
It is the spiritual resurrection from the dead.

Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

The second resurrection found in the passage is in John 5:27-30.

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I think John 5:24 is talking about regeneration, which we obtain in natural life before death. If you agree, then how could one obtain this after being beheaded? Can you explain please?
TD

Jason0047 said:

What you call abuse of Scripture is simply your lack of understanding. What I said simply refutes your belief. Again, the disciples asked where they are being taken. Jesus did not say it would be to the place that you suggested. Jesus said, "Wherever the body is, in that place will the eagles be gathered together." Eagles are the saints. They will eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains. The angel even calls the fowls of the air (saints) to battle. This is the marriage supper of the Lamb.

17 "And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great." (Revelation 19:17-18).

"And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb." (Revelation 19:9).

"Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready." (Revelation 19:7).

"Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;" (Revelation 19:17).

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You're right, I don't understand.
TD

BABerean2 said:

You are correct.
I am not a pretribber.

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Now I get it.
TD

tdidymas said:

Not sure what your point is, I don't see my question answered. It looks to me like it is speaking of Jesus coming "as a thief" at His 2nd coming, in which the world as it is now will be destroyed. Doesn't look like a pre-trib rapture to me. Do I miss your point?
TD

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His coming like a thief in the night phrase in Revelation 16:15 should also be connected to the "Day of the Lord" that comes upon those like a thief in the night, too. "The Day of the Lord" is a period of time that is the "Wrath of God" (or the 2nd half of the Tribulation). At the breaking of the 6th seal, the people of the Earth say: "For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?" (Revelation 6:17). The whole period of time of the "Day of the Lord" includes the breaking of the 6th seal, the Lord's return at the latter half of the 6th bowl, and the purifying of this world by fire (so as to make way for the Millennium). In the middle point of the Tribulation where the antichrist sets himself up in the Jewish temple (with his armies taking control of it), we (believers) are told (a couple of verses down) to look up for our redemption draws near. Why look up? What redemption is drawing near in us looking up? Think. This is the 2nd Rapture. For believers are not appointed unto Wrath.

The 1st Rapture (Pre-Trib Rapture) is true because Jesus said he will come in a day or hour that you think not. So if you are thinking Jesus is coming at the end.... Nope.... Jesus says he is not coming in an hour or day you think not.

Luke 21:36 says,
"Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man."

What things? He was just describing the end times events that were going to come upon the world. The events he describes in the Olivet Discourse perfectly lines up with the 2nd and 3rd seals in Revelation 6.

tdidymas said:

Where do you get your idea that the resurrection to life is not the same as resurrection of the just? I'd like to see where scripture supports this idea, other than your opinion?
TD

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I never said the first resurrection to life wasn't for the just.
It is for the just.

tdidymas said:

So then you believe only Israeli people are God's elect, and that gentile Christians are not?
TD

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No, I actually believe that both the Gentile believers and the 12 tribes that will come to believe are the ELECT. Since the church is already raptured pretrib, at that point in time, the elect that God turns his attention to will be the 12 tribes.

In Mark 13 we can see the elect being gathered. The church having been raptured pre trib will be gathered from heaven and the 12 tribes will be gathered from the earth. We know there will be a harvest of the 12 tribes because we see the 144,000 first fruits guaranteeing a harvest.

Mark 13
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

tdidymas said:

I just read Rev. 19 and I don't get a pre-trib rapture out of it. What I see is an invitation to the marriage supper, not that it is actually happening then. I think you are making presumptions on the text. Further, v.11 begins a separate vision.
TD

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WHAT ? You can't have a Marriage Supper without a Marriage, which happens in Heaven.

Rev. 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife(Church) hath made herself ready. 8 And to her(Church) was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb(Armageddon is the Marriage Supper of the Lamb). And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God. 10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: (The Church are the Brethren) worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God(Jesus). 14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean (See verse 8, the Church or Bride/Saints are dressed in FINE LINEN).

So it says right here in verse 14 that the Church/Bride/Saints in fine linen are IN HEAVEN and we follow Jesus on White Horses. So now that we have determined via the scriptures that we are in Heaven, let's see where we go to next !!

15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God (See Rev. 14:18-20, Winepress of God/Armageddon). 16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords.

17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven(Church, we are the eagles in Matt. 24:28 and the Carcass is Armageddon), Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; 18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse(Jesus), and against his army (Church/Bride). 20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

The Church is Raptured to Heaven BEFORE Jesus' Second Coming to Mt. Zion, we return with him just as the scriptures show above. The White Horses are a Metaphor for victory. Jesus will speak the victory with his mouth, thus the Sword of the Spirit via the mouth. The coming Marriage Supper happens at Armageddon, we the fowls eat the flesh of kings and might men etc. etc. and that is also a Metaphor for victory over the Wicked !!

So how can the Church come from Heaven, having just Married the Lamb, return with Jesus to defeat the BEAST, his Kings and Armies, without having been raptured to Heaven ? We also the Church dressed in White Robes before the Seals are even broken and as the multitude in earlier chapters of Revelation.

Rev. 4:4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment (Church has White Robes); and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

Rev. 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; (Church who is by now the Bride dressed in White Raiment/Robes)

Rev. 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;...................

14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

These are all the Raptured Church in Heaven having already become the Bride, shown just before the Seals are opened and just after the Seals are opened. Verse 14 proves verse 11 is not a separate vision, the Saints are seen in White Linen in both verse 8 and 14.

Rev. 19 thus is the full 7 years in Heaven. Revelation is not in Chronological Order.

Rev. 1 is the Vision of the Glorious Lord.
Rev. 2 and 3 is the Church Age.
Rev. 4 and is the Church in Heaven as the Bride.
Rev. 6, 7, 8, 9 and 15&16 are the Plagues of God in order.
Rev. 20 comes next, it's the Judgment Seat.
Rev. 21 and 22 is the hereafter and the New Jerusalem.

Rev. 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 17, 18 and 19 are Parenthetical Citations or things happening during the timing of the other chapters above. FOR INSTANCE:

Rev. 11 is the Two-witnesses 42 month ministry period, it starts before the first Sea is opened. It has to because they die before the Beast dies. I think the 1335 happens 75 days before the 1260 and is the Two-witnesses showing up to bless Israel with Repentance.

Rev. 12 starts at the 1260 event, when Jesus opens the First Seal. The Anti-Christ goes forth Conquering and chases the Woman (Israel) into the Wilderness for 1260 days.

Rev. 13 starts at the same event, the 1260/First Seal, he rules for 42 Months.

Rev. 14 speaks about at least 7 Years, we see the Church Raptured in verse 14 by Jesus who is on the Clouds, then we see the 144,000 (Jews God protects) on Mt. Zion with Jesus shown coming with Jesus when he defeats those at Armageddon in verses 18-20.

Rev. 17 starts at the 1260 event/First Seal also, its when the Beast and his Kings (SEE Rev. 17:16) destroys all False Religion by mandating only the Beast can be worshiped as God. These will b most of the 1/4 of mankind killed off in the Seal or 1.5 to 2 Billion people, I see them mostly as Muslims.

Rev. 18 also starts at the First Seal but runs all the way through the 7th Vial. Babylon is he WHOLE WORLD getting hit with the Seal, Trumpet and Vial Plagues of God, thus the Commerce goes south in a hurry. 2 Billion people die during the Seals then at the 2nd Woe another 1.5 Billion people die, BAD FOR COMMERCE. And all the grasses burn, 1/3 of the trees, 1/3 of the sea water turns to blood and a 1/3 of the sea Creatures (Shrimp/Fish) die, 1/3 of the Ships are destroyed. Then we have the Three Woes, the last of who is ALL SEVEN VIALS !!

So of course Babylon's Commerce is destroyed. Of course she burns !!

When it says Babylon has become the Habitation of devils, of course it has, Satan has been cast down to earth, Apollyon and his hordes of Demons released from the bottomless pit on mankind.

When it says "Come out of her my people, lest you partake in her sins and thus receive of her plagues". OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT...........God is telling Israel to Flee Judea, to get to Petra, lest they sin against God like Babylon (World) and thus receive of her Plagues. God is saying, go to Petra where I will protect you.

Rev. 19 is also the Full 7 years. The Church IS READY for her Marriage, then we see her in Revelation 4:4, 5:9 and Rev. 7:9-17 wearing white. Later in Rev. 19 she returns with Christ to defeat the Beast on earth at the Marriage Supper (Armageddon).

tdidymas said:

You're right, I don't understand.
TD

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And you, we ; don't want to understand the weird and wonderful interpretations of some here.
Showing them how the context contradicts their ideas and how their theories are simply unsupported by scripture, seems to have no effect. They are in for big surprises when the end times do unfold as actually prophesied.

There is coming next, a huge change to the world. The Lord's great Day of fiery wrath, will set the scene for all the rest of the events before Jesus Returns. 2 Peter 3:7, Romans 1:18
We Christians should know about it and be prepared spiritually and physically.

ItIsFinished! said:

I never said the first resurrection to life wasn't for the just.
It is for the just.

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The first resurrection represents the resurrection to life not numerically first.
The resurrection of the just does not happened at the same time.

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How can the same resurrection not happen at the same time? If resurrection to life is the same as the resurrection of the just, then how can this be at different times? You're not making sense.
TD

tdidymas said:

In Rev. 20:4-5, we read of those beheaded being raised, and this is called the "first resurrection." How can it be the "first" if there was one before it? Do you deny that the beheadings were done during the great tribulation?

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Rev 20
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

So we see those that are beheaded and don't take the mark. When did they get to heaven? Not in Rev 20. How about here.

Rev 7
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Additionally we see another group in heaven that are there before any seals are opened......that is before the tribulation. They will have the dead in Christ.

8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.


These groups take part in the first resurrection, the resurrection of the righteous. The unrighteous don't live again until a thousand years.

keras said:

And you, we ; don't want to understand the weird and wonderful interpretations of some here.
Showing them how the context contradicts their ideas and how their theories are simply unsupported by scripture, seems to have no effect. They are in for big surprises when the end times do unfold as actually prophesied.

There is coming next, a huge change to the world. The Lord's great Day of fiery wrath, will set the scene for all the rest of the events before Jesus Returns. 2 Peter 3:7, Romans 1:18
We Christians should know about it and be prepared spiritually and physically.

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I don't think I've seen you post any proofs that are not easily proven........out of context. Specifically about the rapture or you saying that there are not people in heaven.

tdidymas said:

I think John 5:24 is talking about regeneration, which we obtain in natural life before death. If you agree, then how could one obtain this after being beheaded? Can you explain please?
TD

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The Book of Revelation is not in chronological order.
John saw "souls" in heaven.
They passed through the first resurrection before they died, upon coming to faith in Christ.

Pastor Steve Gregg's interpretation found below is close to mine.


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ItIsFinished! said:

Actually it makes complete sense .
When Christ (The Groom) removes the Church (The Bride) before the 7 year tribulation all the Christians will be gone.
All believers from the day of Pentacost till the time of the removal of the Bride (Church) , are the ones who make up the Church.
Those who receive Christ as Saviour during the 7 year tribulation and die as martyrs during that time will be resurrected at the Second Coming of Christ.
Which is a separate and distinct event from the rapture of the Church.
Actually when you add things up as you say , the pre-trib view makes complete sense and does not fall apart whatsoever.
What confuses many people is the resurrection of the just.
It doesn't happened at the same time , but in stages which is 100% Scriptural.

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ItIsFinished: "When Christ (The Groom) removes the Church (The Bride) ..."
ItIsFinished: "... the removal of the Bride (Church) ..."


I can find no verse in the Bible that says anything about the church being removed or taken from the earth. I can find no verse that says anything about the Bride being removed or taken from the earth. I haven't checked every translation but I don't believe there is any such verse.

There are several verses on the Bridegroom (Jesus) being taken and not being with us. This is mentioned in Matthew 9:15, Mark 2:20 and Luke 5:35. Why would the Bible tell us so plainly about the Bridegroom being taken and say nothing about the Bride of Christ (the church) being taken -- unless it doesn't happen?

So we are warned that the Bridegroom (Jesus) will not be with us, meaning not being with us physically, although He is with us spiritually. The Bible is clear that Jesus, the Bridegroom, is taken up into heaven. There is nothing about the church, the Bride of Christ, being removed, taken, or ascending to heaven, at least until the time of the Final Judgment.

Choose Wisely said:

I don't think I've seen you post any proofs that are not easily proven........out of context. Specifically about the rapture or you saying that there are not people in heaven.

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OK; give us a verse that says God will take His people to heaven.
Assumptions and interpretations just don't cut it.

You say my posts are out of context, because I post against your precious 'rapture to heaven' theory. Merely your opinion, not proofs at all.

tdidymas said:

How can the same resurrection not happen at the same time? If resurrection to life is the same as the resurrection of the just, then how can this be at different times? You're not making sense.
TD

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It isn't that I'm not making sense, you just don't understand what I'm saying.
The just are resurrected to life, but not all of the just are resurrected at the same time.
Those who are resurrected to the second death (the unjust) happens only one time .
This is one of the main reasons individuals reject the Rapture.
They are confused about the resurrection of the just.
It happens in stages not all at once.

keras said:

OK; give us a verse that says God will take His people to heaven.
Assumptions and interpretations just don't cut it.

You say my posts are out of context, because I post against your precious 'rapture to heaven' theory. Merely your opinion, not proofs at all.

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Ok...........Even when I provide a proof that there will be people in heaven.............is that going to change a single thing with you or are you going to continue to spout things that are not true even though what you say can be easily proven wrong??????????????????????????????????????????

Rev 19
1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

Maria Billingsley said:

Thank you for the interaction. We will go round and round on this. I am amillennial so we will never agree. I am also a partial Preterist, not a full one. I believe most of Revelation was fulfilled in 70ad with only the "last day" left to be fulfilled where each and every human being who walked the earth will be raised. Some will suffer the second death and some with be in the Kingdom of God forever.
Blessings!

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Having looked at Revelation fairly closely there are a plethora of things that are truly impossible to have been fulfilled already. I would be careful with that 'last day' thing also. There are a few distinct times in the last days, such as the day of Christ, the last days, the end of days, 'in that day', great tribulation, the day of the Lord, in those days, etc.

tdidymas said:

You should read the whole verse of 2 Pet. 3:10: "The day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar..."

The thief analogy is talking about the approach of the day of the Lord, not the day itself. In every scripture that gives this analogy, it is like the thief who comes "when you are least expecting him."

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Since you admit that the day of the Lord is more than a day, and is a time period, then we can have Him surprising folks like a thief surprise folks BOTH at the Rapture and the return with His saints!

tdidymas said:

How many resurrections do you think there will be, and do you have specific scripture to support it (other than your opinions)?
TD

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Well I would call the saints who are saved from the evil forces at the end of the 1000 year Milennium resurected/raptured. I would consider the Rapture itself as a Resurrection. Then the dead who are raised when He returns to earth. Jesus was the firstborn of the resurrected, so I guess that is another one. Then there is the great throne judgement after the 1000 years, where dead are raised to be judged. Not sure if I left any out...why, did you think there was just one?