pre-trib rapture question

[Searching_for_Christ]

Is it possible to be a dispensationalist yet not ascribe to pre tribes? Or are the two inseperable?

 

[ptomwebster]

Is it possible to be a dispensationalist yet not ascribe to pre tribes? Or are the two inseperable?

Of course it is. I understand the Dispensations, a little differently than many, and totally disagree with the "rapture" doctrine.

 

[linssue55]

No. To disagree with one is to disagree with all.

Dispensations.......


Biblical history of mankind.....


1...Pre-Deluveon civilization......from Adam and Eve to the flood....Gen. 1-11
adam to Noah......fall, flood, Babel


2...Post Deluveon civilization.......
A...First half (Promise) Jewish age-Gen.12 thru Ex. 19, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob.....Abrahamic Covenent.....
B...Second half.....Ex. 19 thru Malachi Gospels (-jn 13-17)....Moses....Law of Moses


3...The church age....(NOW) ....grace, Mystery Doctrine (present time).....Acts 2 thru Rev 5 Epistles.....Paul, Peter, John......Giving of Holy Spirit..1 Cor 6:19-20, Matt 3:11, John 14:17, Rom 5:5, Gal 3:2.


4...Rapture.....in a moment of time 1 Thes 4:13-18...saints with Christ in heaven, ie: the Bride....called up in the air to be with Him


5...Trial and tribulation....7 years..Rev 6-19....Anti-Christ......144,000 true believer Jews witnesses.
A...First 31/2 yrs. ....Religous Power....Political Power, 1-beast, 2-beast, beast makes false covenent with Israel...Isa 28:15-18........
B...Second 31/2 yrs..... political Power...Man of Sin (Satan) DEMANDS Worship ..2 Thes 2.....Israel Flees to mountains...matt 24:15-16.......Satan Cast out of Heaven....Rev 12:9.....Battle of Armageddon....the blood will run Bridle deep to horse......(Abomination of Desolation, ie. =Armageddon....2nd Advent Rev 14:11-15)


6...The Millenium...Christ (Kingdom) Rev 20... Perfect Environment..1000 yrs.
No more wars...no more poor...
At the end of Millenium...Satan is released from H-ell for a short period (months?)...Battle of GOG & Magog


7...Eternity Begins.....New Heaven and New Earth ....Great White Throne Judgement..... And Eternal H-ell.
Believers in etenity with Christ for Forever......

Un-believers with Satan in H-ell for Forever......

 

[golgotha61]

Is it possible to be a dispensationalist yet not ascribe to pre tribes? Or are the two inseperable?

From what I can understand and have read, there are differing views on the rapture for dispensationalists. Pretribulation rapture: takes place before the tribulation. Midtriulation rapture: takes place during the tribulation. Pre-Wrath rapture: takes place after the seal and trumpet judgments. Posttribulation rapture: takes place at the end of the tribulation. Partial rapture: only some of the believers will be raptured. There is one central theme that dispensationalism holds in common concerning the tribulation and that is that the church and Israel are separate entities. The church is not the spiritual Israel. Also to my understanding, the tribulation is meant for Israel and not the church. The church is taken out of the way and God deals with Israel in order for her to accept Christ as her king and savior.

 

[Drayzon]

From what I can understand and have read, there are differing views on the rapture for dispensationalists. Pretribulation rapture: takes place before the tribulation. Midtriulation rapture: takes place during the tribulation. Pre-Wrath rapture: takes place after the seal and trumpet judgments. Posttribulation rapture: takes place at the end of the tribulation. Partial rapture: only some of the believers will be raptured.

I believe that dispensationalists have proven your answer to be true. Many believe in dispensations, but as the above shows, there are many differing views regarding the topic.

There is one central theme that dispensationalism holds in common concerning the tribulation and that is that the church and Israel are separate entities. The church is not the spiritual Israel. Also to my understanding, the tribulation is meant for Israel and not the church. The church is taken out of the way and God deals with Israel in order for her to accept Christ as her king and savior.

I hold to pre-tribulation beliefs. The quote above definitely shows those beliefs. I believe the rapture ushers in a new dispensation or could actually be a pre-dispensation to the Millennial dispensation.

Church Age (Grace & Truth) => Tribulation => Millennial

Some scholars would have it ...

Church Age (Grace & Truth) => Millennial ... and the tribulation is part of the Millennial dispensation.

 

[ptomwebster]

From what I can understand and have read, there are differing views on the rapture for dispensationalists. Pretribulation rapture: takes place before the tribulation. Midtriulation rapture: takes place during the tribulation. Pre-Wrath rapture: takes place after the seal and trumpet judgments. Posttribulation rapture: takes place at the end of the tribulation. Partial rapture: only some of the believers will be raptured.

I do not hold that view at all. I believe "harpazō" should be translated "to seize" meaning ones spiritual body is seized out of ones physical body. The physical body drops away (dies) as in Zech 14: 12, and the spirit, soul and spiritual body meets Christ and those that have gone home before (the dead in Christ had already risen).

There is one central theme that dispensationalism holds in common concerning the tribulation and that is that the church and Israel are separate entities. The church is not the spiritual Israel. Also to my understanding, the tribulation is meant for Israel and not the church. The church is taken out of the way and God deals with Israel in order for her to accept Christ as her king and savior.

I also disagree with this statement being a central theme. Israel, the twelve tribes that have lost thier identity over the many years make up the majority of the Christian church. Most people that call themselves "Jews" today are not of Judah but are people that have usurped the name.

 

[Biblewriter]

Is it possible to be a dispensationalist yet not ascribe to pre tribes? ...

I am a hard core dispensationalist.

I believe that a real understanding of dispensational doctrine and of eschatology both require a pre-trib rapture, even if we did not have distinct scriptures to base the belief upon.

But I also realize that a lack of a full understanding of the doctrine does not disqualify someone as a dispensationalist. There are dispensationalists of each of the rapture timing beliefs already mentioned, that is, pre-trib, mid-trib, pre-wrath, and post trib.

But a denial that there will be a rapture, in terms of a physical removal from this earth without passing through death, would (in my opinion) disqualify a person as a dispensationalist.

Also, I would have to conclude that a denial that God will again recognize and bless the physical nation of Israel in their ancient homeland (after the "church age" has ended) would also disqualify a person as a dispensationalist.

 

[golgotha61]

I do not hold that view at all. I believe "harpazō" should be translated "to seize" meaning ones spiritual body is seized out of ones physical body. The physical body drops away (dies) as in Zech 14: 12, and the spirit, soul and spiritual body meets Christ and those that have gone home before (the dead in Christ had already risen).

Zechariah 14 is the second coming of the Lord in the battle of Armageddon and the rapture takes place before the second coming. The reference to verse 12 is a description of the Lord’s plague on the enemies of Israel. I think your placement of this event as a description of the mechanics of the rapture is misplaced.

According to Strong’s, the Greek word harpazo translates: catch, force, pluck, snatch, spoil, and spoiling. In 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 and 1 Corinthians 15:51-57, the literal translation according to the language used means the physical body and I think to try to make the meaning apply to the “spiritual body” is forcing a preconceived idea where it does not belong.

I also disagree with this statement being a central theme. Israel, the twelve tribes that have lost thier identity over the many years make up the majority of the Christian church. Most people that call themselves "Jews" today are not of Judah but are people that have usurped the name.

It is the central theme for dispensationalists concerning the tribulation and Israel in relation to the church, the church and Israel are separate and are treated separately. You may not agree with the view of the dispensationalist but that is another issue. Israel will regain her identity in the tribulation since the twelve tribes are named and the numbers of each tribe given in Revelation chapter 7. Also, it doesn’t matter what Jews call themselves today, God knows who they are and what tribe they belong to. Revelation is the future and it is referring to Israel becoming a participant in the new covenant.

 

[ptomwebster]

golgotha61,
You may believe in your "rapture," I do not and never will. It is a false doctrine. We will also disagree on Israel and the church. I know who the lost tribes are and where they are found.

 

[Biblewriter]

The subject of this thread is not whether or not the doctrine of the pre-trib rapture is correct, nor is it about whether or not dispensational doctrine is correct.

The subject of this thread is also not whether or not a person has to believe in the doctrine of the pre-trib rapture and be a Christian.

The subject is, and ONLY is, whether or not a person has to believe in the doctrine of the pre-trib rapture to be a Dispensationalist.

All posts about other subjects are off topic.

 

[JesusFreak2011]

I have this question also, and I don't see a clear response. The only time I hear the word "dispensation" is by Christians who do not believe in pretrib or midtrib rapture. Could someone clarify the difference please?

 

[Danoh]

I have this question also, and I don't see a clear response. The only time I hear the word "dispensation" is by Christians who do not believe in pretrib or midtrib rapture. Could someone clarify the difference please?

I tried to make this as short as possible - something that sticking to the Word - alone - does not often allow. My apology in advance.

First off, what is a Dispensationalist?

And where do we go for an answer – human viewpoint – the traditions of men, as so many do?

Or do we put aside our traditions honestly ask, “Nevertheless, what saith the Scriptures?” Gal. 4:30, and then actually stick to that regardless of our traditions?

I mean, look at all the answers thus far – who has actually done that – who has attempted to first answer – from Scripture alone - the question as to what is a Dispensation, for that matter, a Dispensationalist?

Ask the Word – I mean, really do that and that alone - and you find that the Word “Dispensation” is Scriptural:

1 Cor. 9: 16. For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel!
17. For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.

Eph. 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him.

Eph. 3: 1. For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
2. If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
3. How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; [as I wrote afore in few words,
4. Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ]

Col.1: 24. Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:
25. Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;
26. Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
27. To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

Next, look up the Greek word – not so much for “the Greek” – but for where else this Word is used in Scripture where it might have been translated by another Word. This way, you let the Word defines It’s Own Words by how IT uses them, over what Strong, Vine or whomever alone might have to say.

By this you also rob men of their desire to Lord it over you by their – “look how smart I am – I know the Greek” foolishness.

Now, you are both on a level playing field – just you and they and the Word of God – His definitions of His Words by how He uses Them.

I mean, that is a simple principle of grammar. And what is Scripture but God’s Word – how He used the language He gave men to communicate His truth to them, by How He Himself uses the rules of grammar He built-into language. All men did is reverse engineer those rules of grammar God placed into language. No rocket science “Greek” here.

Luke 12 also has this idea of a dispensation, as a stewardship:

42. And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season?

Right here, in Scripture Itself, we have a definition of what a dispensation or stewardship is – a responsibility given by someone to someone else to in turn administer the affairs of others by, not only in their respective portion of said dispensation, but in its due season.

A Dispensationalist then, is someone who studies the Word from the perspective that God has, “at sundry times and in divers manners” dispensed, that is, has, or as Paul herein above, uses this Word – “revealed” some things to man for his obedience, but also, in their due season and to whom and for whom as compared to for us.

As such, all are Dispensationalists to one degree or another. At the same time, however, men begin to depart from this definition due to their application of human viewpoint to this Bible Word, which viewpoint over time becomes the tradition of men and to such an extent that they are no longer able to see what else Scripture has to say on any of this. All they know is that they are right. It gets so bad that they then apply the Word's "let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind," when what the Word in the conext of Romans 14, means by that passage - "as the Word persuades - not as our own mind does!"

Men are then no longer unable to separate what they see in the Word through their tradition versus what the Word actually declares, when It alone is actually relied on.

That out of the way – for now - where does a Pre-Trib Position fit in all this - again, that depends on how much of the Word one actually bothers to make one’s authority over one’s own beliefs.

Throughout Scripture pertaining to God’s plan and purpose for the Earth through a redeemed Israel on day, the Tribulation by which they will be cleansed is basically described as the fire of God’s turning from as well as of His wrath upon Israel for it’s disobedience to Him under the law. As an example – Malachi 3, wherein both the Lord’s First and Second Advent are described. God both turns from them at the same time He turns to them – both for their punishment as well as for their own good, given His Covenant with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Some will turn to Him, others will lose their very souls:

1. Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the LORD, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.
2. But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:
3. And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.
4. Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the LORD, as in the days of old, and as in former years.
5. And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger from his right, and fear not me, saith the LORD of hosts.
6. For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

Note what the messenger of verse 1a – John the Baptist – said, when showed up – Matt. 3:

7. But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8. Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
9. And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
10. And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
11. I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
12. Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

During that time – during that season – those who endure this purging fire of the Lord’s wrath unto the end – Peter’s very message in acts 2 and 3 to these same people – the Lord will gather, cleansed by that, into His garner, the rest – the disobedient, He will gather up and out to the lake of fire:

Acts 3: 23. And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

As did John’s, and the Lord’s, Peter’s gospel to Israel, 1 Peter 1 – of the kingdom – has this Tribulation in mind, as does James – see James one. In fact, Hebrews thru Revelation.

Whereas the Body of Christ has been delivered from this wrath to come:

Romans 5: 9. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
10. For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

1 Thess. 1: 10. And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

As with Israel, this wrath begins, not with the Tribulation, but with God’s turning His back on men who have chosen to both dis-believe and disobey their respective meat in its due season – note how Paul declares that of God’s having turned from Israel, albeit, temporarily, Rom. 11:25,-27, for both it’s unbelief and opposition to what God had been doing prior to Paul when He blinded that nation, at Acts 7, yet note how Israel continued in its opposition:

Acts 28: 25. And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers,
26. Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:
27. For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
28. Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.

2 Thess. 2: 16. Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.

Pre-Trib Rapture then, is the understanding that God’s wrath actually begins with those who have been left behind to that “strong delusion God will send that they might believe a lie,”2 Thess. 2:11, they wanted to believe in the first place:

12. That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

13. But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14. Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
15. Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

A person who is not Pre-Trib then, might be Dispensational, but according to "the traditions of men" - not according to the traditions Paul had taught, both in person and in his Thirteen letters - Romans thru Philemon.

Dano
Eph. 4:16

 

[Biblewriter]

I tried to make this as short as possible - something that sticking to the Word - alone - does not often allow. My apology in advance.

First off, what is a Dispensationalist?

And where do we go for an answer – human viewpoint – the traditions of men, as so many do?

Or do we put aside our traditions honestly ask, “Nevertheless, what saith the Scriptures?” Gal. 4:30, and then actually stick to that regardless of our traditions?

I mean, look at all the answers thus far – who has actually done that – who has attempted to first answer – from Scripture alone - the question as to what is a Dispensation, for that matter, a Dispensationalist?

Ask the Word – I mean, really do that and that alone - and you find that the Word “Dispensation” is Scriptural:

1 Cor. 9: 16. For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel!
17. For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.

Eph. 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him.

Eph. 3: 1. For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
2. If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
3. How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; [as I wrote afore in few words,
4. Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ]

Col.1: 24. Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:
25. Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;
26. Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
27. To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

Next, look up the Greek word – not so much for “the Greek” – but for where else this Word is used in Scripture where it might have been translated by another Word. This way, you let the Word defines It’s Own Words by how IT uses them, over what Strong, Vine or whomever alone might have to say.

By this you also rob men of their desire to Lord it over you by their – “look how smart I am – I know the Greek” foolishness.

Now, you are both on a level playing field – just you and they and the Word of God – His definitions of His Words by how He uses Them.

I mean, that is a simple principle of grammar. And what is Scripture but God’s Word – how He used the language He gave men to communicate His truth to them, by How He Himself uses the rules of grammar He built-into language. All men did is reverse engineer those rules of grammar God placed into language. No rocket science “Greek” here.

Luke 12 also has this idea of a dispensation, as a stewardship:

42. And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season?

Right here, in Scripture Itself, we have a definition of what a dispensation or stewardship is – a responsibility given by someone to someone else to in turn administer the affairs of others by, not only in their respective portion of said dispensation, but in its due season.

A Dispensationalist then, is someone who studies the Word from the perspective that God has, “at sundry times and in divers manners” dispensed, that is, has, or as Paul herein above, uses this Word – “revealed” some things to man for his obedience, but also, in their due season and to whom and for whom as compared to for us.

As such, all are Dispensationalists to one degree or another. At the same time, however, men begin to depart from this definition due to their application of human viewpoint to this Bible Word, which viewpoint over time becomes the tradition of men and to such an extent that they are no longer able to see what else Scripture has to say on any of this. All they know is that they are right. It gets so bad that they then apply the Word's "let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind," when what the Word in the conext of Romans 14, means by that passage - "as the Word persuades - not as our own mind does!"

Men are then no longer unable to separate what they see in the Word through their tradition versus what the Word actually declares, when It alone is actually relied on.

That out of the way – for now - where does a Pre-Trib Position fit in all this - again, that depends on how much of the Word one actually bothers to make one’s authority over one’s own beliefs.

Throughout Scripture pertaining to God’s plan and purpose for the Earth through a redeemed Israel on day, the Tribulation by which they will be cleansed is basically described as the fire of God’s turning from as well as of His wrath upon Israel for it’s disobedience to Him under the law. As an example – Malachi 3, wherein both the Lord’s First and Second Advent are described. God both turns from them at the same time He turns to them – both for their punishment as well as for their own good, given His Covenant with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Some will turn to Him, others will lose their very souls:

1. Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the LORD, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.
2. But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:
3. And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.
4. Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the LORD, as in the days of old, and as in former years.
5. And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger from his right, and fear not me, saith the LORD of hosts.
6. For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

Note what the messenger of verse 1a – John the Baptist – said, when showed up – Matt. 3:

7. But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8. Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
9. And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
10. And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
11. I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
12. Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

During that time – during that season – those who endure this purging fire of the Lord’s wrath unto the end – Peter’s very message in acts 2 and 3 to these same people – the Lord will gather, cleansed by that, into His garner, the rest – the disobedient, He will gather up and out to the lake of fire:

Acts 3: 23. And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

As did John’s, and the Lord’s, Peter’s gospel to Israel, 1 Peter 1 – of the kingdom – has this Tribulation in mind, as does James – see James one. In fact, Hebrews thru Revelation.

Whereas the Body of Christ has been delivered from this wrath to come:

Romans 5: 9. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
10. For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

1 Thess. 1: 10. And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

As with Israel, this wrath begins, not with the Tribulation, but with God’s turning His back on men who have chosen to both dis-believe and disobey their respective meat in its due season – note how Paul declares that of God’s having turned from Israel, albeit, temporarily, Rom. 11:25,-27, for both it’s unbelief and opposition to what God had been doing prior to Paul when He blinded that nation, at Acts 7, yet note how Israel continued in its opposition:

Acts 28: 25. And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers,
26. Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:
27. For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
28. Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.

2 Thess. 2: 16. Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.

Pre-Trib Rapture then, is the understanding that God’s wrath actually begins with those who have been left behind to that “strong delusion God will send that they might believe a lie,”2 Thess. 2:11, they wanted to believe in the first place:

12. That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

13. But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14. Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
15. Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

A person who is not Pre-Trib then, might be Dispensational, but according to "the traditions of men" - not according to the traditions Paul had taught, both in person and in his Thirteen letters - Romans thru Philemon.

Dano
Eph. 4:16

You are quite right about the meaning of a dispensation, as the word is used in scripture. You are also quite right that the only way to determine what an ancient word means in scripture is to study all the places it is used.

But I have a problem with equating a Dispensationalist with a well taught Dispensationalist. There are many who know and believe the basic doctrines of Dispensationalism, but who have no idea where they came from, of what the word itself actually means.

 

[Danoh]

What I mean by "might be Dispensational" is in some things and not that the person is an out and out Dispensationalist. For example, Covenant Theology does recognize Dispensations, but neither in the same way as we do, nor to the extent that we do.

They do not acknowlede the change in Dispensation we do in Rom. 9-11. For that matter, neither do Acts Two nor Acts 28 people and these last two do claim to be Dispensationalists. These two both see the grafting in as the Body rather than, as we of Acts 9 do, as a reference to the offer of salvation itself to both, lost, individual Jews; concluded uncircumcised in heart, of which Paul was a pattern, and lost Gentiles, of which Paul also became a pattern, not through Israel's rise as is Peter's message in Acts 3, but despite Israel's fall.

Fact of the matter is, neither Paul, nor those lost Jews later saved under the Grace ministry he was called to qualified to be saved under the Matt. thru Early Acts Kingdom, Circumcision gospel, for both he and his nation, with the exception of the elect saved under the Kingdom gospel, had been concluded "in uncircumcision" for their unpardonable sin of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit; Matt. 12:31, 32, Acts 6 and 7, Rom. 2, Rom. 9-11. These Jews uncircumcised in heart are who Paul is referring to in Eph. 2 as "them were nigh."

Dano
Eph. 4:16

 

[JerryShugart]

Is it possible to be a dispensationalist yet not ascribe to pre tribes? Or are the two inseperable?

The pre-trib rapture is essential to the classical dispensational view. According to almost all dispensationalists (there may be some exceptions in the Progressive Dispesationalism camp) the present dispensation is a "parenthesis" or "interlude" in God's program for Israel.

Charles Ryrie writes that "Classic dispensationalists used the words 'parenthesis' or 'intercalation' to describe the distinctiveness of the church in relation to God's program for Israel. An intercalation is an insertion of a period of time in a calendar, and a parenthesis in one sense is defined as an interlude or interval (which in turn is defined as an intervening or interruptive period). So either or both words can be appropriately used to define the church age if one sees it as a distinct interlude in God's program for Israel (as clearly taught in Daniel's prophecy of the seventy weeks in 9:24-27)" [emphasis added] (Ryrie, Dispensationalism [Chicago: Moody Press 1995] p.134).

The present dispensation will end before the start of Daniel's 70th week and that week precedes the great tribulation. Therefore, the teaching of the pre-trib rapture is essential to the scheme of classical dispensationalism.

 

[earagun]

I tried to make this as short as possible - something that sticking to the Word - alone - does not often allow. My apology in advance.

First off, what is a Dispensationalist?

And where do we go for an answer – human viewpoint – the traditions of men, as so many do?

Or do we put aside our traditions honestly ask, “Nevertheless, what saith the Scriptures?” Gal. 4:30, and then actually stick to that regardless of our traditions?

I mean, look at all the answers thus far – who has actually done that – who has attempted to first answer – from Scripture alone - the question as to what is a Dispensation, for that matter, a Dispensationalist?

Ask the Word – I mean, really do that and that alone - and you find that the Word “Dispensation” is Scriptural:

1 Cor. 9: 16. For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel!
17. For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.

Eph. 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him.

Eph. 3: 1. For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
2. If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
3. How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; [as I wrote afore in few words,
4. Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ]

Col.1: 24. Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:
25. Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;
26. Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
27. To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

Next, look up the Greek word – not so much for “the Greek” – but for where else this Word is used in Scripture where it might have been translated by another Word. This way, you let the Word defines It’s Own Words by how IT uses them, over what Strong, Vine or whomever alone might have to say.

By this you also rob men of their desire to Lord it over you by their – “look how smart I am – I know the Greek” foolishness.

Now, you are both on a level playing field – just you and they and the Word of God – His definitions of His Words by how He uses Them.

I mean, that is a simple principle of grammar. And what is Scripture but God’s Word – how He used the language He gave men to communicate His truth to them, by How He Himself uses the rules of grammar He built-into language. All men did is reverse engineer those rules of grammar God placed into language. No rocket science “Greek” here.

Luke 12 also has this idea of a dispensation, as a stewardship:

42. And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season?

Right here, in Scripture Itself, we have a definition of what a dispensation or stewardship is – a responsibility given by someone to someone else to in turn administer the affairs of others by, not only in their respective portion of said dispensation, but in its due season.

A Dispensationalist then, is someone who studies the Word from the perspective that God has, “at sundry times and in divers manners” dispensed, that is, has, or as Paul herein above, uses this Word – “revealed” some things to man for his obedience, but also, in their due season and to whom and for whom as compared to for us.

As such, all are Dispensationalists to one degree or another. At the same time, however, men begin to depart from this definition due to their application of human viewpoint to this Bible Word, which viewpoint over time becomes the tradition of men and to such an extent that they are no longer able to see what else Scripture has to say on any of this. All they know is that they are right. It gets so bad that they then apply the Word's "let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind," when what the Word in the conext of Romans 14, means by that passage - "as the Word persuades - not as our own mind does!"

Men are then no longer unable to separate what they see in the Word through their tradition versus what the Word actually declares, when It alone is actually relied on.

That out of the way – for now - where does a Pre-Trib Position fit in all this - again, that depends on how much of the Word one actually bothers to make one’s authority over one’s own beliefs.

Throughout Scripture pertaining to God’s plan and purpose for the Earth through a redeemed Israel on day, the Tribulation by which they will be cleansed is basically described as the fire of God’s turning from as well as of His wrath upon Israel for it’s disobedience to Him under the law. As an example – Malachi 3, wherein both the Lord’s First and Second Advent are described. God both turns from them at the same time He turns to them – both for their punishment as well as for their own good, given His Covenant with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Some will turn to Him, others will lose their very souls:

1. Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the LORD, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.
2. But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:
3. And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.
4. Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the LORD, as in the days of old, and as in former years.
5. And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger from his right, and fear not me, saith the LORD of hosts.
6. For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

Note what the messenger of verse 1a – John the Baptist – said, when showed up – Matt. 3:

7. But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8. Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
9. And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
10. And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
11. I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
12. Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

During that time – during that season – those who endure this purging fire of the Lord’s wrath unto the end – Peter’s very message in acts 2 and 3 to these same people – the Lord will gather, cleansed by that, into His garner, the rest – the disobedient, He will gather up and out to the lake of fire:

Acts 3: 23. And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

As did John’s, and the Lord’s, Peter’s gospel to Israel, 1 Peter 1 – of the kingdom – has this Tribulation in mind, as does James – see James one. In fact, Hebrews thru Revelation.

Whereas the Body of Christ has been delivered from this wrath to come:

Romans 5: 9. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
10. For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

1 Thess. 1: 10. And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

As with Israel, this wrath begins, not with the Tribulation, but with God’s turning His back on men who have chosen to both dis-believe and disobey their respective meat in its due season – note how Paul declares that of God’s having turned from Israel, albeit, temporarily, Rom. 11:25,-27, for both it’s unbelief and opposition to what God had been doing prior to Paul when He blinded that nation, at Acts 7, yet note how Israel continued in its opposition:

Acts 28: 25. And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers,
26. Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:
27. For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
28. Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.

2 Thess. 2: 16. Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.

Pre-Trib Rapture then, is the understanding that God’s wrath actually begins with those who have been left behind to that “strong delusion God will send that they might believe a lie,”2 Thess. 2:11, they wanted to believe in the first place:

12. That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

13. But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14. Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
15. Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

A person who is not Pre-Trib then, might be Dispensational, but according to "the traditions of men" - not according to the traditions Paul had taught, both in person and in his Thirteen letters - Romans thru Philemon.

Dano
Eph. 4:16

I'm glad you kept it short as possible......lol

 

[zeke37]

No. To disagree with one is to disagree with all.

not.
i believe in the dispensations, and i am post trib
but i probably divide them differently than you.

I do not hold that view at all. I believe "harpazō" should be translated "to seize" meaning ones spiritual body is seized out of ones physical body. The physical body drops away (dies) as in Zech 14: 12, and the spirit, soul and spiritual body meets Christ and those that have gone home before (the dead in Christ had already risen).

agreed, except for one thing.
the dead in Christ leave heaven with Jesus, and come here to earth with Him.
they are then raised here in that same spiritual/heavenly body that they left heaven in.
After that, we who are alive and remain are changed in to spirit/air,
then seized to their cloud of witnesses.

but it's all here on earth, and we stay here on earth.

I also disagree with this statement being a central theme. Israel, the twelve tribes that have lost thier identity over the many years make up the majority of the Christian church. Most people that call themselves "Jews" today are not of Judah but are people that have usurped the name.

i agree with you on both accounts.

I have this question also, and I don't see a clear response. The only time I hear the word "dispensation" is by Christians who do not believe in pretrib or midtrib rapture. Could someone clarify the difference please?

i guess that is how it has become know as.
but properly, no.

The pre-trib rapture is essential to the classical dispensational view. According to almost all dispensationalists (there may be some exceptions in the Progressive Dispesationalism camp) the present dispensation is a "parenthesis" or "interlude" in God's program for Israel.


The present dispensation will end before the start of Daniel's 70th week and that week precedes the great tribulation. Therefore, the teaching of the pre-trib rapture is essential to the scheme of classical dispensationalism.

i believe in the dispensations, but not that one.
i think we are in, and will stay in, the same dispensation as the Jews are.

i believe there are three age based dispensations.
one before the foundations of this world,(Gen1:1-Gen1:2 ?)
one for the kingdom of Satan, while man is in the flesh.
one after the flesh, for the Kingdom of God, leads to Eternity/Paradise.

i think that Paul went to the third/highest heaven, meaning the 3rd age or eternity,
where i'd imagine that the promises and rewards of God were seen fulfilled,
and what he saw was so grand that it was unexpressable by him.

 

[franky67]

the dead in Christ leave heaven with Jesus, and come here to earth with Him.
they are then raised here in that same spiritual/heavenly body that they left heaven in.
After that, we who are alive and remain are changed in to spirit/air,
then seized to their cloud of witnesses.

but it's all here on earth, and we stay here on earth.

I believe a true understanding of scripture comes with taking the word literally, unless the context suggests otherwise.

1 Thess 4, verses 13-18 does not in any way say we stay on earth, it just ain't there.
It also does not say Christ comes to the surface of the earth, it ain't there.

All this is what is called "The blessed hope", the 18th verse says "comfort one another with these words"

This is not a description of Jesus' return to earth, Revelation 19:11 is that event.

The verses in 1 Thess. 4 are depicted also in Hebrews 9:28

"So Christ, also , having been offerred once to bear the sins of many, will APPEAR a second for salvation, without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him."

This could not be the second advent, because He comes at that time to smite the nations with the sword out of His mouth, Rev. 19:15

 

[Hismessenger]

THe pretrib view fails to take these verses from revelations into consideration;

6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive [his] mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

I haven't hear one pre-tribber address theses verses and the reason being, why would the angels be concerned about who is worshiping the beast and his image if the church is gone and all that are left are heathen. They can't answer that without speculation or supposition about why this is the case. This must happen before anyone can be taken the way I read them.

hismessenger

 

[Danoh]

THe pretrib view fails to take these verses from revelations into consideration;

I haven't hear one pre-tribber address theses verses and the reason being, why would the angels be concerned about who is worshiping the beast and his image if the church is gone and all that are left are heathen. They can't answer that without speculation or supposition about why this is the case. This must happen before anyone can be taken the way I read them.

hismessenger

The answer to that is very simple - it's context is Romans 11:26, 27, not Romans 11:25. The context of Romans 11:26, 27 is God's return to the time clock of Daniel 9's 70th week, which is actually "the hour of His judgment" detailed in Levitcus 24, Malachi 3 and 4, Matthew 3, and Matthew 24 and 25.

Romand 11:25 [mystery age of grace] 1 Cor. 15:51,52 [mystery catching up] Romans 11:26, 27 [return to Israel's prophetic clock, the hour of His Judgment].

The Body will not be here, but the Israel of God will be, for that is what Romans 11:26, 27 declares the Lord will return to at last finish up with.

25. For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:​

27. For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

Your confusion is that Hebrews through Revelation address the issues of Romans 11:26, 27, but your tradition long ago forsook the warning of Romans 11:25, thus, wise in it's own conceits, comes up with what you have instead.


Danoh
Eph. 4:16