Pre-Trib Belief If Post Is Correct/Problems?

Breckmin · Jan 13, 2009

So the Restrainer is the ever powerful church instead of the Holy Spirit.

Doesn't the "power" of the church come through humility? Doesn't it come
ultimately through the Holy Spirit changing people's hearts?

I have to look this up in the Greek, but before I do....it seems to beg one
question, "Hasn't the church always been a "she" instead of a "he?"

Amazing hoops for exegetical interpretation....

Michael

HisdaughterJen · Jan 13, 2009

Breckmin said:
So the Restrainer is the ever powerful church instead of the Holy Spirit.

Doesn't the "power" of the church come through humility? Doesn't it come
ultimately through the Holy Spirit changing people's hearts?

I have to look this up in the Greek, but before I do....it seems to beg one
question, "Hasn't the church always been a "she" instead of a "he?"

Amazing hoops for exegetical interpretation....

Michael

We were given power, yes, at Pentecost to overcome all the power of the evil one, as Scripture says. Paul is not talking about the Holy Spirit in that passage. He doesn't mention it at all.

The church is both a he (Body of Christ) and a she (Bride of Christ) in Scripture.

Paul was referring to us as a he because he taught that the church is the Body of Christ.

Now, answer the two questions. (The others can jump in anytime to answer them as well! Funny how you guys have all disappeared!)

Hint:

Paul said the restrainer will be "taken out of the way". That's a DEPARTURE!

2Th 2:7For the mystery of lawlessness already works. Only there is one who restrains now, until he is taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8Then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will kill with the breath of his mouth, and bring to nothing by the brightness of his coming;

So, what is the difference between that and this:

2Th 2:3Let no one deceive you in any way. For it (Day of the Lord) will not be, unless the departure comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of destruction,

They are both talking about the exact same thing!

2Th 2:6Now you know what is restraining him, to the end that he may be revealed in his own season.

SO, who is the restrainer? Is APOSTASIA a departure of the church/gathering to Christ or not?

The TRUTH always wins.

hiscosmicgoldfish2 · Jan 13, 2009

Breckmin said:
I believe that your problem is you are going to look at this three dimensional
as though it is based on physical location. The Holy Spirit is active
all through the "seven year period" or the three and a half year
period after the non existent rapture, or whatever you wish to call
it.

If you claim that the Holy Spirit is taken out, and that means the
rapture, this is complete foolishness because you have what other
pretribbers refer to as tribulational believers. So if the Holy Spirit
is restraining the anti-Christ, and "moves out of the way" to allow
the anti-Christ to come to power, this is perfectly consistent with
the post tribulational position. Jumping all around the bible looking
for verses to contradict won't change that fact. When you approach
scripture with that type of agenda you miss the obvious. I am not
saying that is what you will do. The point is, it is almost meaningless
because the Holy Spirit is spiritual and believed to be Omnipresent.
To claim He is not active in Christians lives after your rapture would
be folly.

In otherwords, to make any more of it being the Holy Spirit only
continues to weaken the position, because the Holy Spirit is working
in the lives of all Christians right up until the time of the 2nd Coming.

Michael

that's a good point.. the Holy Spirit is God, Omnipresent.. hovers over the waters.. i hadn't thought of that.. the restrainer is the Roman Empire..

HisdaughterJen · Jan 13, 2009

hiscosmicgoldfish2 said:
that's a good point.. the Holy Spirit is God, Omnipresent.. hovers over the waters.. i hadn't thought of that.. the restrainer is the Roman Empire..

Is that what Paul said he is in 2 Thess 2?

2Th 2:6 Now you know what is restraining him, to the end that he may be revealed in his own season.

Paul apparently told us in that passage so that "now we know".

Hint:

Paul said the restrainer will be "taken out of the way". That's a DEPARTURE!

2Th 2:7For the mystery of lawlessness already works. Only there is one who restrains now, until he is taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8Then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will kill with the breath of his mouth, and bring to nothing by the brightness of his coming;

So, what is the difference between that and this:

2Th 2:3Let no one deceive you in any way. For it (Day of the Lord) will not be, unless the departure comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of destruction,

They are both talking about the exact same thing!

2Th 2:6Now you know what is restraining him, to the end that he may be revealed in his own season.

SO, who is the restrainer? Is APOSTASIA a departure of the church/gathering to Christ or not?

The TRUTH always wins.

Big Mouth Nana · Jan 13, 2009

hiscosmicgoldfish2 said:
I think you'r right. I recon that people will see what's happening slowly, and begin to realise that they arn't going to escape the tribulation. I think it will be a personal crisis for those people, some of them. I see it from another perspective, because i was never taught it.. i was brought up Roman Catholic. I think there will be some panic, and people won't know what to do, or who to turn to. It's a sad state of affairs.
PS. is that picture of Obama with a halo doctored? I saw a similar thing recently with photos of Bush, also presented as a saint with a halo..
what a laugh.

No, Reuters news caught that at one of his speeches. Obama had the "halo sign" behind him and it came out looking that way

Breckmin · Jan 13, 2009

It is interesting. All of the translations give it as a "he" because in the greek the
Holy Spirit is neutral but in the Greek it does not indicate masculine.

So is Jen right?

It is interesting that even Darby's translation translates it as a "He" because
I believe he probably believed it was the Holy Spirit. That has been the
conventional interpretation. Does "it" mean it could be the "chruch?" Or
is this some sort of induction that leads to error?

Michael

Breckmin · Jan 13, 2009

hiscosmicgoldfish2 said:
the restrainer is the Roman Empire..

The Roman what?

Are you an Amillenniumist?

Michael

Can you please explain how the Roman Empire somehow restrains the anti-Christ???

HisdaughterJen · Jan 13, 2009

Breckmin said:
It is interesting. All of the translations give it as a "he" because in the greek the
Holy Spirit is neutral but in the Greek it does not indicate masculine.

So is Jen right?

It is interesting that even Darby's translation translates it as a "He" because
I believe he probably believed it was the Holy Spirit. That has been the
conventional interpretation. Does "it" mean it could be the "chruch?" Or
is this some sort of induction that leads to error?

Michael

Let me make this clear. It's not about me being right. The truth speaks for itself. All I have to do is occasionally quote it. To God be all the GLORY, HONOR and PRAISE!

hiscosmicgoldfish2 · Jan 13, 2009

Breckmin said:
It is interesting. All of the translations give it as a "he" because in the greek the
Holy Spirit is neutral but in the Greek it does not indicate masculine.

So is Jen right?

It is interesting that even Darby's translation translates it as a "He" because
I believe he probably believed it was the Holy Spirit. That has been the
conventional interpretation. Does "it" mean it could be the "chruch?" Or
is this some sort of induction that leads to error?

Michael

Yeah, i noticed that as well, that's really amazing.. i was looking at it in one of the other translations, and then switched back to the King James, where it has it as 'he'.. i was thinking why is it written as 'He'? is he comparing Nero/ the antichrst to God? I didn't understand that he must have thought that it was referring to the Holy Spirit.. because of his bias in translation..
The church is always 'her'.. it was never 'he'. So am i correct then? The restrainer is Rome?

hiscosmicgoldfish2 · Jan 13, 2009

Breckmin said:
The Roman what?

Are you an Amillenniumist?

Michael

Can you please explain how the Roman Empire somehow restrains the anti-Christ???

Because i dont believe the antichrist is Obama, etc.. i believe him to be the leader of 'Mystery, Babylon'. When Rome was taken out of the way, the Roman church took over. It's unpopular to say it here, but that's what i think. The individual 'he' is Nero.
I dont know what an Amillenniumist is.. i did know, but i've forgotten now.
I distinguish between 'the prince of the people' and the antichrist. The two are not linked in the bible.

HisdaughterJen · Jan 13, 2009

hiscosmicgoldfish2 said:
The church is always 'her'.. it was never 'he'.

1Cr 12:12The body is a unit, though it is made up of many parts; and though all its parts are many, they form one body. So it is with Christ.

1Cr 12:27Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it.

hiscosmicgoldfish2 · Jan 13, 2009

HisdaughterJen said:
1Cr 12:12The body is a unit, though it is made up of many parts; and though all its parts are many, they form one body. So it is with Christ.

1Cr 12:27Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it.

The church is still always a her.. and same goes for Israel.. her.. a church is always also a woman.. and Israel is a woman.

HisdaughterJen · Jan 13, 2009

hiscosmicgoldfish2 said:
The church is still always a her.. and same goes for Israel.. her.. a church is always also a woman.. and Israel is a woman.

It's referred to both ways.

We are the Body of Christ and we are the Bride of Christ.

Paul taught us how we are the Body of Christ. Here, it is both a he and a her:

Eph 5:24Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.
Eph 5:25Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her
Eph 5:26to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word,
Eph 5:27and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless.
Eph 5:28In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself.

Eph 5:29After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church-
Eph 5:30for we are members of his body.

Breckmin · Jan 13, 2009

The whole problem is, you have to look pragmatically at what Paul is trying to
say. He is say "you." Let no one deceive "you." He is writing TO the Church.

The exegetical interpretation makes absolutely no sense to be the Church when
you think about it because Paul is writing TO the Church. He would have indicated
your departure, or our departure. That is why he referred to the historical word
that they knew which was being an apostate or an apostasy. This really makes
no sense, the more I think about it. What was restraining was a spiritual force
to prevent apostasy. Everything else doesn't make sense. That is perhaps
why all of the translations use "he" as though it is possibly the Holy Spirit.

The idea that the "body of Christ" is a "he" is completely "lame." I'm sorry,
but that one's just not going to fly in systematic theology..

Michael

hiscosmicgoldfish2 · Jan 13, 2009

Breckmin said:
The whole problem is, you have to look pragmatically at what Paul is trying to
say. He is say "you." Let no one deceive "you." He is writing TO the Church.

The exegetical interpretation makes absolutely no sense to be the Church when
you think about it because Paul is writing TO the Church. He would have indicated
your departure, or our departure. That is why he referred to the historical word
that they knew which was being an apostate or an apostasy. This really makes
no sense, the more I think about it. What was restraining was a spiritual force
to prevent apostasy. Everything else doesn't make sense. That is perhaps
why all of the translations use "he" as though it is possibly the Holy Spirit.

The idea that the "body of Christ" is a "he" is completely "lame." I'm sorry,
but that one's just not going to fly in systematic theology..

Michael

The only solution is that it's Rome. You'v made a good case that it isn't the Holy Spirit, and there's no way it's the church.

and i went a bought a New King James, didn't i.. fool as i am...

5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He[d] who now restrains will do so until He[e] is taken out of the way.

I can't believe it.. yeah just change the case why don't you.. whenever you feel like it..

HisdaughterJen · Jan 13, 2009

Breckmin said:
The whole problem is, you have to look pragmatically at what Paul is trying to
say. He is say "you." Let no one deceive "you." He is writing TO the Church.

The exegetical interpretation makes absolutely no sense to be the Church when
you think about it because Paul is writing TO the Church. He would have indicated
your departure, or our departure. That is why he referred to the historical word
that they knew which was being an apostate or an apostasy. This really makes
no sense, the more I think about it. What was restraining was a spiritual force
to prevent apostasy. Everything else doesn't make sense. That is perhaps
why all of the translations use "he" as though it is possibly the Holy Spirit.

The idea that the "body of Christ" is a "he" is completely "lame." I'm sorry,
but that one's just not going to fly in systematic theology..

Michael

2Th 2:1Now, brothers, concerning the coming of our Lord Yeshua the Messiah, and our gathering together to him, we ask you
2Th 2:2not to be quickly shaken in your mind, nor yet be troubled, either by spirit, or by word, or by letter as from us, saying that the day of Messiah had come.
2Th 2:3Let no one deceive you in any way. For it will not be, unless the departure comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of destruction,

He is a teacher of the church writing to part of the church that was concerned by a possible deceptive letter.

2Th 2:7For the mystery of lawlessness already works. Only there is one who restrains now, until he is taken out of the way. (DEPARTURE)

2Th 2:8Then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will kill with the breath of his mouth, and bring to nothing by the brightness of his coming;

Since when is the body of Jesus Christ a "she"? Christ is a HE and so is his BODY.

Super Kal · Jan 13, 2009

so 2 Thess. 2:3 could possibly be talking about the Roman Catholic Church?

Breckmin · Jan 13, 2009

HisdaughterJen said:
Let me make this clear. It's not about me being right. The truth speaks for itself.

Then would you consider praying about not being right? Would you ask
God to deliver you from all of this induction and start considering the
principles that are 100% for all believers that lead you out of the deception?

HisdaughterJen said:
All I have to do is occasionally quote it. To God be all the GLORY, HONOR and PRAISE!

Amen to that! He is working in the trenches to teach pretribbers about
their deception and bring them back to the biblical position of post trib.

If you think the 2000 years was tribulation, then by nomenclature you're
already post trib!!!! Welcome on board to being post trib. Post trib is the
historical position of the church on eschatology. Now we just need to
get rid of all the English words and deal directly with the concepts in
the original language.

Michael

Breckmin · Jan 13, 2009

HisdaughterJen said:
Since when is the body of Jesus Christ a "she"? Christ is a HE and so is his BODY.

The road to deception is paved with induction....

Michael

HisdaughterJen · Jan 13, 2009

hiscosmicgoldfish2 said:
The only solution is that it's Rome. You'v made a good case that it isn't the Holy Spirit, and there's no way it's the church.

and i went a bought a New King James, didn't i.. fool as i am...

5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He[d] who now restrains will do so until He[e] is taken out of the way.

Who has to depart before the man of sin can be revealed in that passage? Who is "taken out of the way"? Who has to DEPART?

2Th 2:7For the mystery of lawlessness already works. Only there is one who restrains now, until he is taken out of the way. (DEPARTURE)
2Th 2:8Then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will kill with the breath of his mouth, and bring to nothing by the brightness of his coming;

2Th 2:3Let no one deceive you in any way. For it will not be, unless the departure comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of destruction,

2Th 2:1Now, brothers, concerning the coming of our Lord Yeshua the Messiah, and our gathering together to him, we ask you

What did Paul teach us happens when we are gathered to Christ?

1Th 4:17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

We depart the earth and are caught up into the clouds to meet the Lord in the air! It's a DEPARTURE!!!!!!!!

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