Praying To The Saints

[Catholic Christian]

QUESTION: Why Is prayer to the saints difficult for many to grasp? Allow me to give a little background, and forgive me for being a bit verbose.



In Catholic understanding, prayer is a "request". When we pray to those who have gone to heaven ahead of us, we are making a "request" of them. And what is that request? It is that THEY pray for US. Protestants do it all the time, but limit themselves to making this request only of people still on earth. In this, I think the protestant view of the Church is very narrow (no disrespect intended to my seperated brethren). You see, Romans 8: 38-39 says: "neither death nor life.. ..present nor the future.. ..height nor depth.. ..will be able to separate us...".; The Family of God transcends death. We ALL LIVE IN CHRIST. (*It is important to note that praying to saints is not a requirement of Catholics, just an option: Just as a protestant doesnt HAVE to ask a friend to pray for them, but they can.)


Heb 12: 22-24 says that as we approach God, Jesus and the angels, we also approach "the spirits of righteous men made perfect". In other words, THE SAINTS. But, can they hear us? Scripture indicates those in heaven ARE aware of the prayers of those on earth. For example, in Revelation 5:8, John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of "golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints." But if the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.

Oh, and the intercession of fellow Christians in heaven also clearly does not interfere with Christ’s unique mediatorship because in the four verses immediately preceding 1 Timothy 2:5, Paul says that Christians should interceed: "First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. This is good, and pleasing to God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" (1 Tim. 2:1–4). Clearly, intercessory prayers offered by Christians on behalf of others is something "good and pleasing to God"

Bottom line for me, if I am going to ask someone to pray for me, I'm seeking out the holiest person I can find. As the Bible says: "The prayer of a righteous man availeth much" (KJV).

For more Biblical references, go to:
http://www.catholic.com/library/Praying_to_the_Saints.asp

Comments anyone? (This should be interesting.)

 

[mont974x4]

If we are in Christ, then we are righteous. Pray according to God's will and you will see marvelous things happen.

Praying to the dead is a false teaching.

 

[Catholic Christian]

TO: mont974x4

Praying to the dead is a false teaching.

One problemo with your statement: Those in heaven are NOT dead. In fact, they are more alive than you or I, and I believe scripture is pretty plain on that. And as far as "Pray according to God's will", as you put it: The scripture I quoted (1 Tim 2:1-4) states that intercessory prayers offered by Christians on behalf of others is something "good and pleasing to God". Surely those in heaven do what is pleasing to God, eh?

Oh, one other tidbit: 80% of all Christians pray to the saints in heaven, if you include, Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Coptics, and Traditional Anglicans. What you have done, my brother, is put forth a 500 year old "Doctrine of Men" which denies the intercession of the saints as being a Christian truth. In short, you are wrong.



Catholic Crusader

 

[PaladinValer]

If we are in Christ, then we are righteous. Pray according to God's will and you will see marvelous things happen.

Praying to the dead is a false teaching.

Then why worship a dead god?

God is dead if those who serve Him are cut off at their biological deaths. The Holy Scriptures state very clearly that God is not a deity of death but The God of LIFE.

To condemn Saintly intercession simply because they are "dead" is akin to saying God is a liar.

 

[mont974x4]

TO: mont974x4



One problemo with your statement: Those in heaven are NOT dead. In fact, they are more alive than you or I, and I believe scripture is pretty plain on that. And as far as "Pray according to God's will", as you put it: The scripture I quoted (1 Tim 2:1-4) states that intercessory prayers offered by Christians on behalf of others is something "good and pleasing to God". Surely those in heaven do what is pleasing to God, eh?

Oh, one other tidbit: 80% of all Christians pray to the saints in heaven, if you include, Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Coptics, and Traditional Anglicans. What you have done, my brother, is put forth a 500 year old "Doctrine of Men" which deniesd the intercession of the saints as being a Christian truth. In short, you are wrong.



Catholic Crusader

Nowhere in Scripture do we see talking to the dead as a good thing.

nasb
Luk 16:27 "And he said, 'Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father's house--
Luk 16:28 for I have five brothers--in order that he may warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'
Luk 16:29 "But Abraham *said, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.'
Luk 16:30 "But he said, 'No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!'
Luk 16:31 "But he said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.'"

even the above passage calls the righteous dead, denying the rcc claim of them being "more alive".



No one is against bearing eachothers burdens and praying for one another. We are against the apparent necromancy of talking to the dead. Saul trying to talk to Samuel comes to mind.

 

[mont974x4]

Then why worship a dead god?

God is dead if those who serve Him are cut off at their biological deaths. The Holy Scriptures state very clearly that God is not a deity of death but The God of LIFE.

To condemn Saintly intercession simply because they are "dead" is akin to saying God is a liar.

God is not bound by space and time as people are.

 

[PROPHECYKID]

The bible tells me that when Jesus comes back the dead in Christ shall be resurrected. If the dead go to heaven than what is the point of the resurrection.

 

[SeraphimSarov]

even the above passage calls the righteous dead, denying the rcc claim of them being "more alive".

That's actually also an Orthodox claim, which in the grand scheme of things makes yours a minority view. However, that is irrelevant, as you have failed to take into account that Christ had not yet descended to hades to free them. If the saints who have left this world are dead, I'd sure like to know what it is you think Christ accomplished.

No one is against bearing eachothers burdens and praying for one another. We are against the apparent necromancy of talking to the dead. Saul trying to talk to Samuel comes to mind.

He attempted to do that through witchcraft. An invalid and perhaps intellectually dishonest comparison.

 

[PaladinValer]

God is not bound by space and time as people are.

Glad you agree.

And since prayer is always through the Spirit, then what I said should be no problem.

 

[Ormly]

If There is only one mediator between man and God, i.e., Jesus, why take into yourself the notion that anyone else can be?

 

[lionroar0]

If There is only one mediator between man and God, i.e., Jesus, why take into yourself the notion that anyone else can be?

There is ony one mediator between God and man. That is Jesus.

Praying to the Saints is not by passing Jesus. That is a common misconception.

Praying to a Saints is asking to them to pray with and for us, because prayer is of the Spirit. Just as we ask others on this world to pray with and for us. That's not by passing Jesus.

Peace

 

[SeraphimSarov]

If There is only one mediator between man and God, i.e., Jesus, why take into yourself the notion that anyone else can be?

I hope you never ask anyone to pray for you. Seriously, these arguments are getting old.

 

[Catholic Christian]

Pax Vobis, from
the Catholic Crusader

If There is only one mediator between man and God, i.e., Jesus, why take into yourself the notion that anyone else can be?

Any time you pray for someone else, you are participating in Christ's mediatorship. This does not take away from Christ: This glorifies Christ.
Again, I encourage you to read this link for a better overview:
http://www.catholic.com/library/Praying_to_the_Saints.asp

 

[mont974x4]

That's actually also an Orthodox claim, which in the grand scheme of things makes yours a minority view. However, that is irrelevant, as you have failed to take into account that Christ had not yet descended to hades to free them. If the saints who have left this world are dead, I'd sure like to know what it is you think Christ accomplished.




He attempted to do that through witchcraft. An invalid and perhaps intellectually dishonest comparison.

SHow me in Scripture where it says we can or should talk to the dead? Or at least where it's not shown in a bad light.


Did Paul or Peter ask Stephen to intercede for them after he was martyred? Someone else? Any example?



I see no difference between what Saul did and what the rcc teaches.

 

[mont974x4]

BTW, there's a difference between being a mediator (Christ alone), and a living saint praying in intercession for another living person.

 

[SeraphimSarov]

BTW, there's a difference between being a mediator (Christ alone), and a living saint praying in intercession for another living person.

That's exactly what we're talking about. Your whole problem is that you think that those who have passed from this world are dead. So I am going to say this again: if the saints who have left this world are dead, I'd sure like to know what it is you think Christ accomplished.

 

[mont974x4]

Christ brought eternal life to those who follow Him. He cleansed me from all sin.



Are there any examples of talking to people that are already in Heaven? Is there any good example of asking those in Heaven to intercede on our behalf?


Do you think God is so busy we need someone else?

 

[SeraphimSarov]

Christ brought eternal life to those who follow Him.

So you hideously misspoke in saying that those who passed from this world are dead. You understand my point and don't even know it.

Are there any examples of talking to people that are already in Heaven? Is there any good example of asking those in Heaven to intercede on our behalf?

The problem is that you are looking at this from a sola scriptura standpoint, which most of Christianity simply does not buy. I can cite the examples of the catacombs, for instance, but I know already that you don't care. I could cite the cloud of witnesses mentioned in Scripture, but again, you don't care. I can't help you understand if you refuse to let go of the unbiblical notion that the Christian faith is found only in the Bible.

Do you think God is so busy we need someone else?

1) For the millionth time -- do you ask people to pray for you? I hope not.
2) "The prayer of a righteous man availeth much."
3) The way you phrased this question seems to imply that you think that we believe the saints act on their own, independently of God -- that is patently false. They offer their prayers to the Lord just as we do.

 

[mont974x4]

So you hideously misspoke in saying that those who passed from this world are dead. You understand my point and don't even know it.



The problem is that you are looking at this from a sola scriptura standpoint, which most of Christianity simply does not buy. I can cite the examples of the catacombs, for instance, but I know already that you don't care. I could cite the cloud of witnesses mentioned in Scripture, but again, you don't care. I can't help you understand if you refuse to let go of the unbiblical notion that the Christian faith is found only in the Bible.



1) For the millionth time -- do you ask people to pray for you? I hope not.
2) "The prayer of a righteous man availeth much."
3) The way you phrased this question seems to imply that you think that we believe the saints act on their own, independently of God -- that is patently false. They offer their prayers to the Lord just as we do.

The only way the ideal works is by playing word games, which I have little patience for.


Even the Bible referes to the saints in Heaven as being dead, or asleep. The idea that they are "more alive" is one of those word games some people play.


We have an example of asking other saints that are still on earth praying for eachother. We have no example of asking those in Heaven to pray for, or with, us.


I am in Christ and He is in me. I am a member of the royal priesthood and a saint. I am righteous. I see prayers answered all the time.

The above is true for each and every believer on this earth. Pray according to His will and watch His mighty hand at work.

 

[simonthezealot]

It's a waste of time and breath and it is contradictory to scripture.
When you pray, pray like this.
Our Father whom art in heaven....