Praying to the Saints is wrong.

[theseed]

I know that many Roman Catholic Christians (and possibly some others like the Greek and Coptic Orthodox Christians) believe that believers may pray (ask) to the canonized Saints.

I disagree with this doctrine on the basis that is not scriptural.

A. The Bible explicity forbids praying to the dead and to spirits, and using mediums to the spirit world. (All Scirpture NIV). Notice that some verses explicity forbid praying to the dead while. Spiritists and mediums were people who prayed do the dead. Saul is famous for seeking out the dead.

Leviticus 19:31 " 'Do not turn to mediums or seek out spiritists, for you will be defiled by them. I am the LORD your God.



Leviticus 20:6
" 'I will set my face against the person who turns to mediums and spiritists to prostitute himself by following them, and I will cut him off from his people.

Leviticus 20:27
" 'A man or woman who is a medium or spiritist among you must be put to death. You are to stone them; their blood will be on their own heads.' "

Deuteronomy 18:11
or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead.

1 Samuel 28:3
Now Samuel was dead, and all Israel had mourned for him and buried him in his own town of Ramah. Saul had expelled the mediums and spiritists from the land.

1 Samuel 28:7
Saul then said to his attendants, "Find me a woman who is a medium, so I may go and inquire of her." "There is one in Endor," they said.

1 Samuel 28:9
But the woman said to him, "Surely you know what Saul has done. He has cut off the mediums and spiritists from the land. Why have you set a trap for my life to bring about my death?"

2 Kings 23:24
Furthermore, Josiah got rid of the mediums and spiritists, the household gods, the idols and all the other detestable things seen in Judah and Jerusalem. This he did to fulfill the requirements of the law written in the book that Hilkiah the priest had discovered in the temple of the LORD .

1 Chronicles 10:13
Saul died because he was unfaithful to the LORD; he did not keep the word of the LORD and even consulted a medium for guidance,

Isaiah 8:19
When men tell you to consult mediums and spiritists, who whisper and mutter, should not a people inquire of their God? Why consult the dead on behalf of the living?

Isaiah 19:3
The Egyptians will lose heart, and I will bring their plans to nothing; they will consult the idols and the spirits of the dead, the mediums and the spiritists.


​

B. Communion of the Saints doctrine is purported to mean by early Christians that the church was never divided, but always in fellowship. This is true, but it does not logically follow that we ought to pray or that we can pray to Christians who are in heaven. No where in the bible do we read that early Christians prayed to those who are asleep in Christ.







C. Defition of communion. We see communion of the saints in the bible, but these are not canonized saints, just the saints that we all are. And communion by defition means to share. We see this in the Bible, specifically in Acts 2.42-47.

Acts 2
42They devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and to the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer. 43Everyone was filled with awe, and many wonders and miraculous signs were done by the apostles. 44All the believers were together and had everything in common. 45Selling their possessions and goods, they gave to anyone as he had need. 46Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts, 47praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people. And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved.

There are 2 things to be concluded from this passage.

1)"They devoted themsleves to the Apostles teachings', that means that they submitted to the authority of the Apostles.
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2)All the believers were together and had everthing in common". We see the example of communion in this passage, infact, we get our word common and communion from the same orgin. We see that they sold their goods and shared thier money together. Also, they ate meals together, and had "church services together. Here are some definitions of communion.
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3)Therefore, The Church, or The Body of Christ (1 Cor. 3), is supposed to be unity here on earth, this is the essence of the communion of the saints.
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D. As mentioned above, proponants of praying to deceased Saints will often argue that it is no different tha asking a friend to pray for you. However, it would be unbiblical to bow a knee and plead for some one to make intercession for us. Additionally, this contradicts the Levitical laws of seeking intercession from spirits. And beleivers will remain a spirit until they are ressurected in thier glorified bodies (1 Thess. 4:13) We read in 1 Thess. 4 that they were concernced about not seeing thier deceased loved ones. And what hope does Paul offer? He does not tell them they they can pray to the saints. He tells them about the future ressurection (Phil. 1.:23, 24). So those who are asleep in Christ are disrupted from receiving communication.


E. Propanants will often site Revelation 5:8 and 8:3 as a biblical basis for praying to the saints as well.


[To be finished later]

 

[Stormy]

I have never consulted a medium... don't even read the horoscope.

You have us confused with someone else.

 

[theseed]

I have never consulted a medium... don't even read the horoscope.

You have us confused with someone else.

But you have prayed to spirits?

 

[sarahbug]

Is it really that different that speaking to a deceased loved one? Or am I way off base? I don't mean that the "ghost" of the loved comes back and has a chat...I just know sometimes I'll talk to my grannie who passed away years ago.

I don't know...maybe I just sound weird.

 

[isshinwhat]

Divination, which is what the Bible prohibits, is "a foreseeing or foretelling of future events; the pretended art discovering secret or future by preternatural means," thus placing your trust outside of God (Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.) This is not what we do when we ask saints for their prayers.

Revelation 8:3-4 records this scene from John's vision of Heaven, "And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God."

Through that vision, we have a clear picture of worship in Heaven, complete with an angel offering up the prayers of the Saints. The angels and Saints in Heaven stand before Christ in worship, perfectly living out the commands of Christ, one of which is that we pray for one another. It is their love for us as brothers, and more importantly Christ within us, that drives them to pray for us. The same Jesus that dwells in our hearts dwells in theirs as they partake fully in the "divine nature," and that is the tie that binds us together in the Communion of Saints.

May all of those numbered in the "great cloud of witnesses" of Hebrews 12 pray for me!

God Bless,

Neal

 

[PaladinValer]

I know that many Roman Catholic Christians (and possibly some others like the Greek and Coptic Orthodox Christians) believe that believers may pray (ask) to the canonized Saints.

Catholic, Eastern and Oriental Orthodox and Anglican/Episcopal Christians (among others) all hold to the Communion of the Saints, as the Apostle's Creed states.

I disagree with this doctrine on the basis that is not scriptural.

It is Scriptural. The ancient Church included the Book of Tobit in the official Christian Canon, and it discusses prayers for the dead.

A. The Bible explicity forbids praying to the dead and to spirits, and using mediums to the spirit world. (All Scirpture NIV). Notice that some verses explicity forbid praying to the dead while.

The Saints are not familiar spirits or mediums. With that fact, all your quotes are rendered null and void. This means I can get to the rest of your post quicker.

B. Communion of the Saints doctrine is purported to mean by early Christians that the church was never divided, but always in fellowship. This is true, but it does not logically follow that we ought to pray or that we can pray to Christians who are in heaven. No where in the bible do we read that early Christians prayed to those who are asleep in Christ.

It also doesn't say we cannot ask those in Heaven to pray for us. You are Appealing to Ignorance. And you forget that we have Holy Tradition that the Holy Spirit used to influence the Church in truth. Holy Tradition says that you can beseech a Saint to pray for you.

C. Defition of communion. We see communion of the saints in the bible, but these are not canonized saints, just the saints that we all are. And communion by defition means to share. We see this in the Bible, specifically in Acts 2.42-47.

Again, this is Appealing to Ignorance, which is a logical fallacy. The Ecumenical Councils are a major part of Holy Tradition; they were influenced by the Holy Spirit and I therefore must subject myself to their rulings as a committed, orthodox Christian.
Asking a Saint to pray for you is just like asking your friends to pray for you. There's no difference, unless you think the Christ failed in His mission to destroy death.

 

[thereselittleflower]

But you have prayed to spirits?

No theseed . . we never pray to spirits. Neither do we practice witchcraft, or consult mediums, or use divination, or practice necromancy.


Peace in Him!

 

[kimber1]

 

[thereselittleflower]

theseed

B. Communion of the Saints doctrine is purported to mean by early Christians that the church was never divided, but always in fellowship. This is true, but it does not logically follow that we ought to pray or that we can pray to Christians who are in heaven. No where in the bible do we read that early Christians prayed to those who are asleep in Christ.

We could show you in the bible where it shows that the saints pray for us, but you do not accept that part of the bible.


And, whether you find it logical or not is really immaterial. The Earliest Christians found it very logical. We have thousands of inscriptions in the catacoombs where the Christian dead were buried, of prayers to those who had gone on before them asking for their prayers.

Your modern definition of what "communion of saints" means is not what the first Christians held to.


The question is, do you want to hold on to your misconceptions, or do you want to learn the truth.


Peace in Him!

 

[Philip]

theseed,

Do you believe that those who have fallen asleep in Christ are still part of the Church?

 

[theseed]

No theseed . . we never pray to spirits.

The Saints don't have thier glorified bodies yet, so they qualify has spirits.

 

[theseed]

And, whether you find it logical or not is really immaterial. The Earliest Christians found it very logical. We have thousands of inscriptions in the catacoombs where the Christian dead were buried, of prayers to those who had gone on before them asking for their prayers.

I want to see dates, places, pictures, et cetera. I want sourse.

 

[theseed]

theseed,

Do you believe that those who have fallen asleep in Christ are still part of the Church?

The church age will end at the rapture (2 Thess. 2; Rev. 3:10-11; 1 Thess. 1:10)

 

[Kripost]

But you have prayed to spirits?

Technically yes, by praying to the Holy Spirit.

 

[theseed]

Technically yes, by praying to the Holy Spirit.

But the Holy Spirit is God, we can pray to God, he has always been Spirit.

 

[theseed]

The Saints are not familiar spirits or mediums. With that fact, all your quotes are rendered null and void. This means I can get to the rest of your post quicker.

Correct, but they are dead like Samual was when Saul sought him. Medium was bolded by mistake, because of the search I did at www.biblegateway.com

I will address the Revelation arguments later , and I would like to see archeological stuff and records that support your sacred tradition before 200 AD. or eve n 100 AD.

 

[Philip]

I want to see dates, places, pictures, et cetera. I want sourse.

http://www.catacombedipriscilla.com/pagine-eng/regina.htm

This website has some good images from the second and third centuries.

 

[isshinwhat]

I want to see dates, places, pictures, et cetera. I want sourse.

Here are two examples. The first comes from a commentary in which Hippolytus asks for the three companions of Daniel to pray for him, and last comes from a third century liturgical prayer which was found. This is admittedly conjecture on my part, but if we have a liturgical prayer dating from the early 200's, then in all likelihood its use predates it written, liturgical form. Still, both date from the early 200's A.D.

"[Appealing to the three companions of Daniel] Think of me, I beseech you, so that I may achieve with you the same fate of martyrdom"
Hippolytus of Rome,On Daniel,11:30(A.D. 204),in OTT,319

We fly to your patronage, O Holy Mother of God:
despise not our petitions in our necessities,
but deliver us always from all dangers,
O Glorious and Blessed Virgin.

Anonymous (3rd Century)

 

[isshinwhat]

Here are two more, then it's bedtime.

May the Lord bless everyone and keep you safe tonight.

Neal

Hermas



"[The Shepherd said:] ‘But those who are weak and slothful in prayer, hesitate to ask anything from the Lord; but the Lord is full of compassion, and gives without fail to all who ask him. But you, [Hermas,] having been strengthened by the holy angel [you saw], and having obtained from him such intercession, and not being slothful, why do not you ask of the Lord understanding, and receive it from him?’" (The Shepherd 3:5:4 [A.D. 80]).

Clement of Alexandria



"In this way is he [the true Christian] always pure for prayer. He also prays in the society of angels, as being already of angelic rank, and he is never out of their holy keeping; and though he pray alone, he has the choir of the saints standing with him [in prayer]" (Miscellanies 7:12 [A.D. 208]).

 

[ps139]

I disagree with this doctrine on the basis that is not scriptural.

A. The Bible explicity forbids praying to the dead and to spirits, and using mediums to the spirit world.

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. (1 Cor 15:22)

A Saint, by definition, is in Christ. Therefore, a saint is alive, not dead.