You're going to have to help me out a little more than that. I'm not confused with my own values of prayer but I am with the values of praying to saints.You don't know what the goal is when you ask someone to pray for you?
It wasn't the communities that sprung from the Reformers that were first to be called Christians. Like homosexuals called themselves gay and effectively stole the word, the word Christian was stolen from Catholics. Now people ignorant of history think it's a title exclusive to themselves.
But nowhere does Revelation say that the the prayers at the altar of God are from dead saints. This could very well be prayers from saints that are alive. So it does not prove that we can pray to dead people.
People pray to saints due to Bible illiteracy. They haven't developed confidence in God that He hears our prayers, so they include praying to fallible people instead of a infallible Father God. Scripture teaches "there is one God and one moderator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus" (1 Tim 2:5). Sadly, too many believers don't let the Bible get in the way of what they wrongly believe.I am 65 years old, but it was just a few days ago, on this forum, someone explained to me for the first time that there are people who pray to saints. Why don't these people pray to God instead?
I suspect people who pray to saints are well-intentioned, but I believe the whole point is to develop a personal relationship with the Lord, isn't it?
Where do you get these judgements?People pray to saints due to Bible illiteracy. They haven't developed confidence in God that He hears our prayers, so they include praying to fallible people instead of a infallible Father God. Scripture teaches "there is one God and one moderator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus" (1 Tim 2:5). Sadly, too many believers don't let the Bible get in the way of what they wrongly believe.
there is virtually no evidence of praying to the saints to intercede for us until about the 4th century. The practice was an innovation of post-Apostolic times.
I answered already in post #351. I get the idea from Catholic doctrine which puts their bishops and pope at the top while Jesus is Lord of Christians. Only one is fallible. Note, I'm not saying that Catholicism has fallen, but it's being led by humans who can be fallible despite the best intentions. Look at what happened with the misinterpretation of Pope Francis and there is no hell.
Umm... no. They do believe they can pray directly to God and they are not expecting the saints to answer the prayers, only God answers prayers and they believe this as well as only God forgives sin. I suggest you research into these things. You sound like I did before I started finding out what they actually believe rather than spout off what I had been fed in the baptist church.It is like ancestor worship but they pray to saints as intermediates to God or Jesus to ask him forgive them or bless them because they are such sinners and don't believe they are worthy to pray directly to God.
Umm... no. They do believe they can pray directly to God and they are not expecting the saints to answer the prayers, only God answers prayers and they believe this as well as only God forgives sin. I suggest you research into these things. You sound like I did before I started finding out what they actually believe rather than spout off what I had been fed in the baptist church.It is like ancestor worship but they pray to saints as intermediates to God or Jesus to ask him forgive them or bless them because they are such sinners and don't believe they are worthy to pray directly to God.
I have been agonizing over this issue for months! I came to understand that they do not expect the saints to ANSWER the prayers, but just to intercede and that to 'pray' is not to worship but just to ask. Pray thee come with me etc as in olden times when the word 'pray' meant more than it does today.
However! I have not been able to justify doing this because in every forum and in every article no one could give me any proof that the apostles or even the ancient church fathers such as Polycarp etc prayed to saints. Research found that it was over 300 years before any proof of this was established.
And if we are to ask saints for intercession then why not OT saints? Moses for example. The apostles never asked for their intercession.
If I saw that even the Church fathers taught by the apostles did this I would not have a problem with it.
I was disappointed to see the same one scripture vaguely used as proof Paul prayed for the house of .. I forget his name.. which they take to mean he was dead. Maybe. Maybe not. Not enough to base a huge doctrine on nor a verse in Maccabees.
So in other forums I was just told to 'take it on faith' and the authority of the church and do it anyway. I explained that no, for me to do something I consider sin would be .. sin. So I was told I have a problem with authority. No, I have a problem with being told to do something I consider, at this time, to be sin.
I really like the RC and the Orthodox churches. I believe this was the 'original ' church. I think the only thing I just cannot handle is the praying to saints not on the earth. The protestant churches are such a mess. The Reformation has caused thousands and thousands of independent folks to teach anything they like with no accountability with the results showing up in cults and Tv 'ministries' spreading heresies unchecked.
Someone said they see the catholics(including Orthodox) and the first reformation churches of Anglican and (missouri) Lutheran and consider all the rest as 'protestant'.
No Anglican church near here so I still wrestle with the issues in the Episcopal and RC churches and the icons in the Orthodox (I already know their reasons for this)
hmm gay priests or pray to saints? What options! (I have issues with the Missouri Lutheran and yes i know.. no perfect church but how about one that is blatantly not following scripture or seeming to worship Luther)
Yes we did but notice how the Lord’s Prayer in Matthew 6:9-13 is only prayed once and Mary gets 10 Hail MarysWell spoken.
Didn't you start the decats of the rosary with the Our Father and finish them with the Glory be ?
I have been agonizing over this issue for months! I came to understand that they do not expect the saints to ANSWER the prayers, but just to intercede and that to 'pray' is not to worship but just to ask. Pray thee come with me etc as in olden times when the word 'pray' meant more than it does today.
However! I have not been able to justify doing this because in every forum and in every article no one could give me any proof that the apostles or even the ancient church fathers such as Polycarp etc prayed to saints. Research found that it was over 300 years before any proof of this was established.
And if we are to ask saints for intercession then why not OT saints? Moses for example. The apostles never asked for their intercession.
If I saw that even the Church fathers taught by the apostles did this I would not have a problem with it.
I was disappointed to see the same one scripture vaguely used as proof Paul prayed for the house of .. I forget his name.. which they take to mean he was dead. Maybe. Maybe not. Not enough to base a huge doctrine on nor a verse in Maccabees.
So in other forums I was just told to 'take it on faith' and the authority of the church and do it anyway. I explained that no, for me to do something I consider sin would be .. sin. So I was told I have a problem with authority. No, I have a problem with being told to do something I consider, at this time, to be sin.
I really like the RC and the Orthodox churches. I believe this was the 'original ' church. I think the only thing I just cannot handle is the praying to saints not on the earth. The protestant churches are such a mess. The Reformation has caused thousands and thousands of independent folks to teach anything they like with no accountability with the results showing up in cults and Tv 'ministries' spreading heresies unchecked.
Someone said they see the catholics(including Orthodox) and the first reformation churches of Anglican and (missouri) Lutheran and consider all the rest as 'protestant'.
No Anglican church near here so I still wrestle with the issues in the Episcopal and RC churches and the icons in the Orthodox (I already know their reasons for this)
hmm gay priests or pray to saints? What options! (I have issues with the Missouri Lutheran and yes i know.. no perfect church but how about one that is blatantly not following scripture or seeming to worship Luther)
And if we are to ask saints for intercession then why not OT saints? Moses for example. The apostles never asked for their intercession.
If that suits you, then off with you, but let me show you thisPrayer to the Saints to me is more asking them to pray with me (as opposed to them) to the Father through Jesus, like I would ask someone still living in the flesh. I usually do it before I pray, such as "Saint Gemma pray with me... [Our Father, etc, begins]."
How do you know what are its (so-called) "lies" & what are its truthes?I know they are genuine Catholics who truly believe in the LORD, but I don't trust Catholicism in it's self. It mixes lies with truth, and teaches things which are not biblical.
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