I have asked several Catholic people in my classes why they pray to saints. Sadly, they didn't know why they do what they do. Could any Catholics answer why you all do that and where in the Bible it says to do that?
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Praying to Saints
- Thread starter GraceAnneWinter
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LowlyServant
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GraceAnneWinter said:
*le sigh* that's not cool... these classmates of yours should learn more about their own religion...anyway... We praty to the saints not as a way of worshipping them, but to seek their intersession just as we ask our friends to pray for us. If we know people are in Heaven, with God, who better to ask to pray for us than those closest to God??
Rv 5:8 - "...golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints."And I think the Protestants threw out the books of Maccabees after the reformation, but in 2 Mac 15:11-16 Jeremiah and Onias were able to pray for their people after they died...
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I get what you are saying. But Protestants believe that anyone who is a Christian is a Saint, so why not pray to anyone in heaven? Also I just don't get why you spend your time praying to the saints and not God. I mean he can hear you, so why not pray to the one who actually makes the decisions? You say its intercession like asking friends to pray for you, but I see that as two completely different things. You ask your friends when they are praying to God to also remember you, you aren't actually spending your time praying to a Saint, personally (and please don't take offense) but I see praying to a saints a waste of time when you can pray to God 24/7.
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LowlyServant
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GraceAnneWinter said:
Well... Catholics believe anyone in Heaven is a Saint... so we do pray to anyone in Heaven. We just don't believe being a Christian means automatic sainthood. You can't say that just because someone claims Jesus as God that necessarily means they are good people. Think about it... Satan knows Jesus is God... he lived in Heaven at some point remember... but he we all know is not in Heaven. That is why canonization in the Church is a VERY extensive process...
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LowlyServant said:
I like the comparison you have about Satan knowing Jesus is God! But, are you saying that just because you are a Christian doesn't mean you go to Heaven?
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LowlyServant
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GraceAnneWinter said:
yes... saying you are a Christian won't get you into Heaven... you have to live like a Christian...not just going through the motions but living the motions... if you get what i'm saying...
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LowlyServant said:
haha sorry, but I don't get what you mean by "living the motions" could you explain it more
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Catholics believe that all Christians who strive to live a holy life are saints, as well. The canonized Saints in Heaven have been perfected, are now free from this sinful world and worship at the Throne of Christ. The Bible tells us that the prayer of righteous man availeth much. There can be no more righteous of a human than one (or many) who are in heaven. We believe that they are our brothers and sisters and do not cease caring about us just because they are departed from this earth. We are commanded to pray for one another in Scripture. When we ask saintly intercession, we are asking for them to pray for us.GraceAnneWinter said:
Also, you make an erroneous assumption when you ask why Catholics pray to saints instead of to God. You have assumed that Catholics do not pray to God. Catholics ask intercession from Saints, in heaven and on earth, and also pray to God through praise and prayer.
Michelle
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In other words a one time proclamation of Jesus as your Saviour is not enough. You must live a Christian life. There is no "once saved always saved" as the Protestants proclaim.
Matthew 25:34-36
"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'
Matthew 25:41-43
"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'
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Miss Shelby said:
Well when you say I make an "erroneous assumption" when I asked why Catholics pray to saints instead of to God, that is due to the Catholics that I have talked to. Several have told me that the Saints hear you and God doesn't so that is why you need there intercession and why most Catholics don't pray to God. A problem I have with the praying to saints is do they have the ability like God to listen to multiple people's prayers at one moment? How do you know that? Also, you say "the canonized Saints have been perfected" where in the Bible does it say that and is it God or the Catholic church who decides they are perfect?
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GraceAnneWinter said:
There's no Biblical reason to pray to anyone but God and there's certainly no reason to pray to the dead.
In fact, the Bible condemns both practices.
Very often you will hear them cite Rev 5:8, which talks about the prayers of the saints. Notice, though, that these are the prayers of the saints in Heaven to God, not an example of the living saints praying to the dead.
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People need to really stop asking the Bible to prove everything. There is Tradition, in fact the Bible was put together based on Traditions. What people don't understand is that the Bible was about Christ and His teachings, not His mother, not Saints, just about Jesus, period. There are many other writings of the Apostles and Church Father's on these subjects that were not included in the Bible because of these reasons.
In Orthodox View, God makes His Saints. Signs happen after their death to show their Saintliness. Incorupted body, fragrances, miracles, etc.
In Orthodox View, God makes His Saints. Signs happen after their death to show their Saintliness. Incorupted body, fragrances, miracles, etc.
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12volt_man said:
Again we don't pray to Saints, but ask them to pray for us. Just like James told us in His Epistle. It has been done since at least the 2nd century, when the Liturgy of St. James was performed. And also was included in the Liturgy's of St. John Chrysostom and St. Basil, in the 4th centuries.
The thing is Protestansts believe that death is the end, Orthodox and I would assume Catholics as well, believe death is the beginning. Their is no barrier between life and death, Jesus trampled this barrier with His Ressurection. The dead in Christ are as much part of the Church, if not more, than the living.
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12volt_man said:
I fully agree with your response, but could you find the scripture where the Bible condemns those practices because I would love to have it on hand!
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GraceAnneWinter said:
There isn't, or else he would have posted it. like he tried to with Rev. which doesn't make any sense for what he said.
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repentant said:
Yikes!
Why are we constantly told in scripture to test everything in light of the word of God?
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Unfortunately you have been exposed to some very uninformed Catholics. I'm sorry to hear that. It is compeletely untrue that God cannot hear our prayers, and it is not Catholic teaching that God cannot hear our prayers. I would not make the assumption that 'most' Catholics believe what little the ones you have been exposed to believe.GraceAnneWinter said:
As to how the Saints can hear our prayers, I would say that God allows them to. God allows angels to hear and see when sinners return to the Lord, they all rejoice in heaven. We have Catholic theology (Tradition)* which has always taught the mystical body of Christ, that being the departed faithful and the faithful on earth. It wasn't until after the Reformation that the belief came about that one could not plead intercession from a saint. We also have the Transfiguration, where Jesus speaks to foregone saints, which tells us that they are alive and in heaven.
As to your question for Biblical evidence that the Saints in heaven are now perfected, see Revelation. It states that nothing unclean shall enter.
Michelle
*Protestant tradition of Sola Scriptura allows only that which is derived from the Bible as authoritative.(which dates back only about 500 years)--- Ancient Christian theology has always relied on Tradition and Scripture.
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repentant said:
Actually, that I didn't post it doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. It simply means that I was just looking at adding my opinion, not getting into a detailed discussion on the Bible.
It makes perfect sense.
The person listed Rev 5:8 as justification for praying to the dead.
I simply pointed out that the verse only mentions the prayers of the saints. It does nothing to nullify the Bible's condemnation of praying to the dead.
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In order for your theory to work, you have to prove that those in heaven are dead. The Bible states that if we are in heaven we have eternal life.12volt_man said:
Michelle
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