Prayers for the dead

[RileyG]

On wikipedia it says *some* Methodists pray for the dead. (Yes, I know wikipedia is usually trustworthy, but sometimes it is not). What is the official view on what happens to the soul immediately after death according to Methodist doctrine?

 

[circuitrider]

That seems like an error. I don't know of Methodists that pray for the dead. The dead don't need our prayers. And in fact our Articles of Religion speak out against praying to the saints.

 

[RileyG]

Prayers *FOR the dead....not praying to saints.

What do Methodists believe what happens after a person dies?

Thanks!!

 

[circuitrider]

Ultimately those who have a relationship with God go to heaven.

This is from the UMC Confession of Faith.

Article XII - The Judgment and the Future State

We believe all men stand under the righteous judgment of Jesus Christ, both now and in the last day. We believe in the resurrection of the dead; the righteous to life eternal and the wicked to endless condemnation.

 

[RileyG]

Would Hell (endless torment) be considered "fire and brimstone" or just "separation from God"? Thank you for your response.

 

[circuitrider]

Our Articles of Religion and Confession of Faith do not declare a "fire and brimstone" kind of hell. The terms endless condemnation and separation are used in the two documents.

Much of the "fire and brimstone" view of hell comes from Dante's Inferno and not the Bible.

Because the documents are as open to interpretation as they are, United Methodists have a lot of different beliefs about what hell might be like.

 

[Qyöt27]

I could feasibly imagine that those of the more Anglo-Catholic persuasion *might*, although the key word there is *might* (and this also largely hinges on Wesleyan enclaves that still exist in the Anglican Communion, since that's really the only place where the term 'Anglo-Catholic' means anything). All but a couple of the Articles of Religion were the pieces of the Thirty-Nine Articles of the Church of England that weren't trimmed out for being Calvinist or Royalist, and so they're just as much historical statements representative of the time they were written as they are possible doctrinal ones (this is also the reason for disclaimers when the anti-Catholic language in Article XIV is brought up).


About the closest to a succinct viewpoint I've ever heard is the phrase 'absent from the body, present with the Lord', which my grandmother is rather fond of. It generally does double duty when denying the existence of ghosts and stuff like 'soul sleep'.

 

[RileyG]

Our Articles of Religion and Confession of Faith do not declare a "fire and brimstone" kind of hell. The terms endless condemnation and separation are used in the two documents.

Much of the "fire and brimstone" view of hell comes from Dante's Inferno and not the Bible.

Because the documents are as open to interpretation as they are, United Methodists have a lot of different beliefs about what hell might be like.

The bold part is exactly what I have been taught by my professor and spiritual advisor. Thank God I no longer see hell as "fire and brimstone". It helped me so much mentally and spiritually.

Thank you for your response. I appreciate it!!!

 

[RileyG]

I could feasibly imagine that those of the more Anglo-Catholic persuasion *might*, although the key word there is *might* (and this also largely hinges on Wesleyan enclaves that still exist in the Anglican Communion, since that's really the only place where the term 'Anglo-Catholic' means anything). All but a couple of the Articles of Religion were the pieces of the Thirty-Nine Articles of the Church of England that weren't trimmed out for being Calvinist or Royalist, and so they're just as much historical statements representative of the time they were written as they are possible doctrinal ones (this is also the reason for disclaimers when the anti-Catholic language in Article XIV is brought up).


About the closest to a succinct viewpoint I've ever heard is the phrase 'absent from the body, present with the Lord', which my grandmother is rather fond of. It generally does double duty when denying the existence of ghosts and stuff like 'soul sleep'.

So basically, if my understanding is correct, there MIGHT be prayers for the FAITHFuL departed that they continue to grow in grace in heaven? or no? That is what my understanding is how the Anglicans and Anglo-Catholics see it.

Thanks!!!

 

[RomansFiveEight]

That's how Catholics view it, yes. And nobody is going to kick you out of Methodism if you chose to do the same However, most United Methodists do not practice that. The dead don't need our prayers. In the presence of God, there's nothing we can offer them.

 

[Qyöt27]

So basically, if my understanding is correct, there MIGHT be prayers for the FAITHFuL departed that they continue to grow in grace in heaven? or no? That is what my understanding is how the Anglicans and Anglo-Catholics see it.

Thanks!!!

Like RomansFiveEight said, it's not something you'll be kicked out of Methodism for, but it's not taught as a normative practice. Due to the UMC being a bit of a big tent, you can get lots of different attitudes. Some parishes are low church, others (probably most) are somewhere in the broad church area, and a few are high church. Although what this means for the UMC is probably closer to saying 'nearly Episcopalian', which is likely less dramatic than the difference between broad church Anglicans or Episcopalians and Anglo-Catholics - part of this might be due to Methodism splitting from the Church of England some 50-60 years prior to the Oxford Movement. The dynamics overall are a bit...tricky.

I lean existentialist, so my personal feelings on topics like prayers for the dead is that it's more of an outcropping of the process of mourning, and has therapeutic benefit for the one praying. I can't think of a reason to disparage or feel offended by that.

 

[circuitrider]

The bold part is exactly what I have been taught by my professor and spiritual advisor. Thank God I no longer see hell as "fire and brimstone". It helped me so much mentally and spiritually.

Thank you for your response. I appreciate it!!!

Glad to be in in discussion with you. Personally I don't believe hell is at all like what most people think it is like because most of the ideas I hear do not come from the Bible at all.

 

[JCFantasy23]

That's how Catholics view it, yes. And nobody is going to kick you out of Methodism if you chose to do the same However, most United Methodists do not practice that. The dead don't need our prayers. In the presence of God, there's nothing we can offer them.

This is true. I will say, however, that I do include two close friends in prayer each night who have passed on. I ask on their behalf for peace and talk to God about them. I couldn't imagine not doing so, but I don't see it as wrong not to if a person feels it would feel strange or wrong to them.

 

[RomansFiveEight]

I'm actually going to be doing a sermon series this fall on things that aren't in the Bible. It's amazing the number of things people quote, or people believe, that aren't found in scripture. For example, I'll be addressing "The Lord helps those who help themselves", which is sometimes quoted as scripture. The truth is it's an early 5th Century greek philosophy. And in some ways, was used to mock faithful by Greek atheists and followers of Greek God's. As a way of saying that God is unfaithful. (Sure he'll help you as long as you do all the work first!) Amazing that something like that could one day be repeated as "Scripture" by Christians.

As to the prayer, no, it's not harmful. I'd never oppose someone who did it or suggest they stop. Personally, no, I don't believe the dead hear or are in any way impacted by our prayers nor do they have any ability to impact us. But I'm not a legalistic person. That's the kind of person that ignored the broader message of Grace and instead Crucified the one who brought it because he broke a few rules. (Well, and was politically subversive). Praying to saints and praying to the dead is not what I consider a "harmful theology". Harmful theologies would be things LIKE "The Lord Helps those who help themselves", which is not only not-scriptural, it's anti-scriptural, and encourages people to stop caring for the very people Jesus Christ called them to care for. Theology that tells people to stop doing what Jesus told them to do is very harmful.

 

[JCFantasy23]

Ugh, I know what you mean on that phrase 'The Lord helps those who helps themselves' being waved around. My mother has quoted it on more than one occasion and people say it around here all the time. Sometimes I'll speak up and point out that's not scriptural. We're supposed to pray to God for everything and not sit here worrying about being too dependent on Him.

 

[circuitrider]

Sounds like a good sermon series RomansFiveEight!

 

[RomansFiveEight]

Often that phrase is used to justify rejecting almsgiving and other scriptural, Jesus-commanded activities. By vilifying the poor, the homeless, and the hungry as lazy and saying "The Lord helps those who helps themselves!" we can systematically disqualify those in need and eliminate our need to care for them. But I don't believe Christ stopped loving them or stopped expecting US to care for them.

 

[Dave-W]

My grandad (unchurched) quoted that one frequently. He had another one of similar content: "God helps d@#% fools and little children."

I agree that it sounds like a great series. Will you make it available?

 

[circuitrider]

Often that phrase is used to justify rejecting almsgiving and other scriptural, Jesus-commanded activities. By vilifying the poor, the homeless, and the hungry as lazy and saying "The Lord helps those who helps themselves!" we can systematically disqualify those in need and eliminate our need to care for them. But I don't believe Christ stopped loving them or stopped expecting US to care for them.

I saw a funny meme on Facebook that reminded me of what you've said above. It showed a monopoly board and described that one player was given 95% of the money and all the property but Virginia Ave. which went to the other player. The player with 95% of the money and almost all the property promptly won. So why did the other person lose? Obviously because he was lazy. ;-)

Of course the point being that if you are poor enough there is often no way to get yourself out of that poverty without help. The game is stacked against you.

 

[Qyöt27]

There was a similar series on Half-Truths I listened to a few months ago, from the Church of the Resurrection archives:
http://www.cor.org/worship/sermon-archives/show/series/Half-Truths/

Personally I think we (general we, as a country) need more of this kind of exposition. Sort of like, as mentioned above, lots of the perception of Hell owes more to Dante (or Milton) than it does Scripture.