Prayers for the Dead=Purgatory?

[jukesk9]

Catholics often get accused that Purgatory was invented in the Middle Ages.  As you well know, prayers for the dead are encouraged in 2 Macabees and there is ample evidence that the first Christians offered prayers for the departed.  How does the Eastern Orthodox view of praying for the dead differ from that of the Catholic teaching of Purgatory? 

 

[OLDoMiNiON]

As i understand it, Catholics pray "to" their dead relatives, not "for" them. Thats a big difference if you ask me...

 

[Gideon4God]

Quote:

"The Holy Orthodox Church, like a concerned mother, daily, at every Divine service, offers up prayers for all her children who have departed for the land of eternity.  Thus, at midnight service troparia and prayers for the departed are read, and they are commemorated at its concluding ektenia."

Follow link to read the rest...

http://www.christianforums.com/newreply.php?action=newreply&threadid=38160

Also see...

http://orthodoxinfo.com/death/stmark_purg.htm

 

[jukesk9]

Yesterday at 05:13 PM OLDoMiNiON said this in Post #2

As i understand it, Catholics pray "to" their dead relatives, not "for" them. Thats a big difference if you ask me...

Well, you don't understand it correctly at all.  Catholics pray for the departed that they are forgiven of their sins.  And unless a relative is declared a Saint by Holy Mother Church, a Catholic wouldn't ask a dead relative for prayers lest he commit a heinous sin. 

 

[jukesk9]

Thanks for the link, Gideon.  I thought this was very important:

To all this the Orthodox party gave a clear and satisfactory answer. [5] They remarked, that the words quoted from the book of Maccabees, and our Saviour's words, can only prove that some sins will be forgiven after death; but whether by means of punishment by fire, or by other means, nothing was known for certain. Besides, what has forgiveness of sins to do with punishment by fire and tortures? Only one of these two things can happen: either punishment or forgiveness, and not both at once.

Today, the Catholic Church's understanding of Purgatory is that it is not a punishment, rather it is a process (not a place) of purification to remove any venial sins that one was unable to repent of prior to death. 

I would say that we aren't worlds apart on praying for the dead.  I pray for unity.

 

[OLDoMiNiON]

Where is purgatory mentioned in the bible? It seems to me that it's just something made up by man to overcome the pain that you go though when a relative dies... imo, can anyone elaborate on the reasons why this belief is upheld?

 

[Gideon4God]

Purgatory in the Bible as a Catholic might see it. 

LK 26:26-27, 1 Cor 3:15, MT 5:25-26...temporary agony

Heb 12:6-11...God's painful discipline

MT 12:32...no forgiveness after death for this sin

1 Pet 3:19...limbo

Rev 21:27...nothing unclean shall enter heaven

Heb 12:23...souls in heaven are perfect

Col 1:24, 2 Sam 12:14...extra suffering

2 Macc 12:43-46...sacrifice for the dead

2 Tim 1:15-18...prayer for Onesiphorus for "that Day"

1 Jn 5:14-17...motal/venial sins

 

 

[jukesk9]

Old Dominion,

If you want to debate Purgatory, go the IDD forum.  If you want to ask questions about it, go to the OBOB forum.   If you want to discuss praying for the dead from an Orthodox point of view, this is the place. As far as praying for the dead, both Catholics and Orthodox Christians partake in this practice, which both find ample support from Scripture.  Both believe it was taught by the Apostles and this is further evidenced by prayers for the dead being inscribed on the tombs of 1st Century Christians. 

 

[OLDoMiNiON]

Yeah, ok, fair enough

 

[jukesk9]

Thanks.

 

[CopticOrthodox]

We (Oriental Orthodox) don't believe in Purgatory.  We believe that all the righteous and unrighteous who lived in the Old Testament went to the gave, Hades when they died.  The rightous awaiting the Christ, and the unrightous awaiting the lake of fire.  When Christ died on the cross, His Spirit and His Body were separate, as happens to all of us when we die, but both His Spirit and His Body remained united to the Godhead.  His Body lay in the Tomb, and did not decay since it was united to the Godhead.  His Spirit decended into Hades like all others, but since He had committed no sin, Satan had no power to hold Him.  He preached the Gospel in Hades, explaining to the OT figures the role they played in the history of salvation.  He then broke assunder the gates of iron and the bars of brass (or however the Psalm goes), opened the way to Heaven, and lead the righteous there as He was Ressurected.

Now when people die (or properly, depart since there is no death for the Christian) they are immediatly judged and go either to Heaven, or to Hades.  At the end of time, the bodies will be ressurected, and we will stand at the final judgment, where our deeds will be revealed.  The unrighteous will be cast into Hell, the lake of fire, and the rightous will go with Christ to the Heavenly Jerusalem.

Catholics have come up with the idea of Purgatory as a transitory place (or state) between earth and Heaven.  They say that we must be purged of all sins by suffering before being ready to enter Heaven.  This is adding guilt, the same as adding the penance to confession.  No amount of suffering can make us worthy to be with God in Heaven, only Christ's blood can.  Even Catholics admit that those alive at the Second Coming will not go to Purgatory, but will be "instantly purgated" and stand at the final judgment.  I've never heard an explanation for why Purgatory is not needed here, but is in other places.

We don't pray for the dead because we believe they are suffering before Heaven.  We pray for them because we believe that we are not separated, that we are still one community, and we are brought together through prayer.  The prayers for the dead are consoling to those still here.  Also, God is not bound by time, so just because the person is already judged does not mean that the person does not benifit from them.  I for one don't understand how my prayers help people here on earth, and yet I trust that they do.  I'm not surprised then that I don't understand how my prayers trust the dead, and yet I trust that they do.  It is Biblical, and it has been the practice of Christianity at all times over the past 2000 years.

 

[OLDoMiNiON]

Thanx, i found that very interesting and informative..

 

[Moros]

What the ORTHODOX BELIEVE Concerning prayer for the dead
"If I may respectfully ask, in what sense do the Orthodox pray for the souls of the departed? As you know, this is not a practice within Protestantism."

You ask in what sense do we pray for the souls of the departed. Why, in the same sense that we pray for the souls of those with us because Christ is Risen, trampling down death by death. The barrier between living and dead has been eliminated due to the Resurrection of Christ. Those who are departed are just as much with us and just as much a part of the Church as those who we see living on this earth. There is no longer any separation. And so not only do we pray for them, but they also pray for us; in the same way that you might ask your friends to pray for you and in turn pray for them so also do we pray for each other without concern for the separation of death.

When we pray for either the living or the dead we use the same prayer: "Lord have mercy", to express our desires. We do not know what to pray for even for those with whom we live because only God knows what is best for our salvation, and so we say "Lord have mercy". Likewise we do not know the needs and concerns of the departed, but God does and trusting in His knowledge we say, "Lord have mercy"

We do know that, like all of us, those who have departed require forgiveness of sins, and that they look for a "place of rest" in the bosom of Christ and so we make this petition, that God will provide these things, but again as for specifics about how this should happen we simply conclude with "Lord have mercy".

Some of the confusion might occur in that most Protestant confessions teach that the judgment after death determines the eternal state of the soul. Not so, according to the Tradition and teaching of the Orthodox Faith. The particular judgment immediately after death only determines the state and "residence" of the soul in the spiritual world and that judgment is based on who our spiritual "friends" are. Do we have more converse with angels or demons? Do we devote ourselves more to the saints or to sinners? Are we attached to the world or to the Kingdom of God? Do we act like Satan or Christ? Whatever we are like, there we are placed in the spiritual world. And the demons are diligent in attempting to demonstrate that we are tied to them and not to Christ and so any and every unconfessed sin, no matter how seemingly small and insignificant is brought out by them as accusations against us and the angels on the other hand counter this accusation by a description of our righteous deeds which indicate our change of heart and life. But do not confuse this particular judgment and temporary disposition with the eternal disposition of the soul to be determined at the Great Judgment. Then, the soul being reunited with the body thanks to the general resurrection, each person will be judged by God Who sees within either the spark of grace or none and those who have that spark will be brought into the Kingdom of God and those who do not will be cast into outer darkness - finally and eternally. So you see that when we pray for the departed, we do so knowing that the final judgment has not yet occurred and while we don't know what the exact needs of the departed are, we can simply lift them up to God calling out for His mercy.

http://www.orthodox.net/articles/about-prayer-for-the-dead.html

Orthodox prayer for the dead:

Into thy hands, 0 Lord, I commend the souls of thy servants NN., and beseech thee to grant them rest in the place of thy rest, where all thy blessed Saints repose, and where the light of thy countenance shineth forever. And I beseech thee also to grant that our present lives may be godly, sober, and blame-less, that, we too may be made worthy to enter into thy heavenly Kingdom with those we love but see no Ion~r: for thou art the Resurrection, and the Life, and the Repose of thy departed servants, 0 Christ our God, and unto thee we ascribe glory: to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit; now and ever, and unto ages of ages. Amen.