Possible Reasons for Faith?

Hey!

I'ld like to know out of these (or any others you might want to add) which are the best or strongest reasons for belief in God. I know people believe for many reasons, but for what reasons should one believe and which give the strongest foundation:

1) Historical (Resurrection)
2) Reasoned Arguments (eg: Cosmological, Teleological)
3) Convincing Miracles/Healings
4) Answers to pray/ Big Coincidence
5) Religious Experience/s
6) Thinking God is talking to you
7) Changed lives
8) Unguessable prophecies
9) Religion makes you happy
10) Morality

Just to point out, I used to be a strong Christian not long ago and so I have had experience with all the above so you can assume I know at least the basics.

Thanks

darknova said:

for what reasons should one believe and which give the strongest foundation:

1) Resurrection

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Hi, and welcome to CF! Your list is good, and the best part of it is this is #1. Applying academic standards to writings of antiquity, the Gospel, in it's entirety, makes the Trojan Wars look like Mother Goose by comparison. And the Gospel hinges upon the Resurrection.

darknova said:

3) Convincing Miracles/Healings
4) Answers to pray/ Big Coincidence
5) Religious Experience/s
6) Thinking God is talking to you
7) Changed lives
8) Unguessable prophecies

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I put these in the same category, with each circumstance being unique. Your #8 could get into Numerology which is a whole world unto itself, and fascinating ...

So for whatever reason you "used to be" a strong Christian, it isn't due to CF. What happened? Where are you now, Spiritually speaking? You'll find many here with genuine concern, and if you look I'm sure you can also find at least a few here who you'll be able to relate to, and work through whatever has come up ...

Ray

razeontherock said:

Hi, and welcome to CF! Your list is good, and the best part of it is this is #1. Applying academic standards to writings of antiquity, the Gospel, in it's entirety, makes the Trojan Wars look like Mother Goose by comparison. And the Gospel hinges upon the Resurrection.

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Thanks, I made the list while I was still desperate to find something worthy to grab hold of to stop falling. Now I realise my final decision will take time and if God is real He will do what is right with me.

I also find this one convincing and the only one which proves Christianity as the highest truth.

My problem comes being able to whether the people who knew Jesus in life actually thought he rose from the dead and the New Testament was made up by people who had just heard of Jesus.

Interestingly I was asked whether I would be just as convinced if the Koran said the writers of the book saw Muhammad rise from the dead and I was unsure how to answer.

I put these in the same category, with each circumstance being unique. Your #8 could get into Numerology which is a whole world unto itself, and fascinating ...

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Did you purposely leave number 2 out because you don't find it convincing?

So for whatever reason you "used to be" a strong Christian, it isn't due to CF. What happened? Where are you now, Spiritually speaking? You'll find many here with genuine concern, and if you look I'm sure you can also find at least a few here who you'll be able to relate to, and work through whatever has come up ...

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When I was 17 I became convinced for a short while that evolution was false by a book a read. Soon after arguing this with an atheist friend I saw that evolution likely has good evidence and based on my love of science (I still planned to do a physics degree at this point) I thought it more likely science was right than a bias interpretation.

Since then I realised Christians could be seriously wrong and not know it and that I could be one of them. 2 years later on I had to study why all sins were equal in God's eyes and found that they were clearly not according to the Bible, but I couldn't convince my a friends and my ex youth leader of this, showing that Bible inerrantists don't believe what the Bible says. This lead later on to rejecting infallibility and many other doctrines that didn't make sense.

I have found the strongest evidence against God in my eyes is that it can be boiled down to psychology.

Spiritually I would say I wasn't agnostic but I'm not Christian in any way that matters, but I hope it is true in the end.

Hope, well that's one important component. It doesn't quite put things in gear unless it's preceded by Faith though!

darknova said:

I also find this one convincing and the only one which proves Christianity as the highest truth.

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I like the way you put that. So often on here people make loaded statements to the effect that Christianity claims to exclude all other perspectives as untrue, which it doesn't. It seems to me that almost all other perspectives prepare a person and a society for Christ. It's not analogous to the writers of the Koran hypothetically claiming to witness Muhammad's resurrection though.

darknova said:

My problem comes being able to whether the people who knew Jesus in life actually thought he rose from the dead and the New Testament was made up by people who had just heard of Jesus.

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Well that's concise! It also speaks to #2 on your list, which I didn't address because each reasoned argument is far too detailed to do justice to on topic w/ the premise of your OP. Personally, I came to the Lord because of reason and logic. There are certainly other posters on CF that can address specific aspects of this better than I can, and there are some good old threads that might interest you. If you look in our Outreach section for threads started by Hamaschiagape you'll find at least one that touches upon some 20+ such arguments. ToHoldNothing explores NC (non-Christian) perspectives. In other parts of CF we've had researchers post from time to time.

My meager offering is the sheer logic of the original 12 Apostles, all of whom were martyred with the possible exception of 1. So placing the circumstances in a skeptic's vacuum, the strongest allegation you could make is they sincerely believed He rose from the dead, but were somehow mistaken. Of course when you consider Our Lord's elder half-Brother James, that idea evaporates immediately. He was an unbelieving Jew until the Resurrection, after which he became prominent, and possibly the most prominent leader for some time. A mistake doesn't account for such a conversion.

darknova said:

When I was 17 I became convinced for a short while that evolution was false by a book a read. Soon after arguing this with an atheist friend I saw that evolution likely has good evidence and based on my love of science (I still planned to do a physics degree at this point) I thought it more likely science was right than a bias interpretation.

Since then I realised Christians could be seriously wrong and not know it

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What book? I think you're creating a false dichotomy here. I swallowed Ev theory hook line and sinker, never examining it critically until I was in my 30's and radically saved for over a decade. Which is really strange for me because I scrutinized everything else, especially the Christian Faith. All through Church history, Faith and science have not been opposed. There was some oppressive leadership in the dark ages, but they represented no one else.

darknova said:

2 years later on I had to study why all sins were equal in God's eyes and found that they were clearly not according to the Bible, but I couldn't convince my a friends and my ex youth leader of this, showing that Bible inerrantists don't believe what the Bible says. This lead later on to rejecting infallibility and many other doctrines that didn't make sense.

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Well THAT'S a very long and laborious topic to sift through! Let me try to refine those statements a bit:

1) Some people, and even groups of people, really don't know what the Bible says. Despite their zeal.

2) Individual sins can be shown to be differentiated in consequence both in this life and the next, but overall "sin" is universal throughout mankind, and different from individual sins. Some poster has (had?) an avatar proclaiming that the Cross simultaneously dealt with sins, sin, and sinners. I think that's both a valid point and an important distinction.

darknova said:

I have found the strongest evidence against God in my eyes is that it can be boiled down to psychology.

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The Resurrection refutes that solidly. So do your points 3 - 8.

darknova said:

I hope it [Christianity] is true in the end.

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Do you understand how "the earnest of our inheritance" (Ephesians 1) comes to bear on this?

Hi, and welcome,DarkNova!
Please rest assured that others, including myself, have experienced this same sort of feeling.
The Bible says:" The secret things belong unto the Lord;but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children forever;that we may do all the words of this law." Deuteronomy 29:29
DarkNova, God has written with His finger on a couple of rock tablets the revealed will of God. These rocks were engraved with the Ten Commandments. We can tell that they were of primary importance because modern man so wants to get rid of them.
What do the Ten Commandments contain? Do they have signifigance today?
You can review the Ten Commandments in Exodus 20:1-17.
How many people have ever kept all Ten? Only One
What do you call all those billions of people that have not kept the Ten? Sinners ("For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God." Romans 3:23)
What will happen to anyone who doesn't keep all of the Ten,in word and spirit? "But the fearful,and unbelieving,and the abominable,and murderers,and whoremongers,and sorcerers,and idolators,AND ALL LIARS
shall have their part in the lake that burneth with fire and brimstone.This is the second death." Revelation 21:8
I haven't done any of those things! Have I? See Jesus' Teachings in Matthew chapter 5. He says:
1)If you are ANGRY with your brother you are in danger with being judged (Matthew 5:21-22)
2)If you LOOK on a woman or man to lust after them in your heart,you are guilty of adultery.(Matthew 5:27-28)
3)If you SWEAR you are in danger (Matthew 5:33-37)
4)If you RESIST mistreatment, you go against Christ.(Matthew 5:38-42)
To sum up,in the last verse of Matthew 5:48,"BE YE THEREFORE PERFECT, EVEN AS YOUR FATHER IN HEAVEN IS PERFECT."
Who can do this? Is it possible? What does God want me to do?
I think you or any other sinner is in big trouble.

Now,DN, please go ahead and explain how you are not guilty of breaking these Ten Commandments.
This is the crux of the whole matter. Sin.If it isn't dealt with,God will deal with you. And few people will ever realize this until it is TOO LATE.

"ENTER YE IN AT THE STRAIGHT GATE;FOR WIDE IS THE GATE,AND BROAD IS THE WAY THAT LEADETH TO DESTRUCTION. AND MANY THERE BE THAT GO IN THEREAT,
BECAUSE STRAIGHT IS THE GATE,AND NARROW IS THE WAY,WHICH LEADETH UNTO LIFE,AND FEW THERE BE THAT FIND IT." Matthew 7:13-14

Julian of York

darknova said:

I know people believe for many reasons, but for what reasons should one believe and which give the strongest foundation:


Just to point out, I used to be a strong Christian not long ago and so I have had experience with all the above so you can assume I know at least the basics.

Thanks

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Without a true Love for God, all of the other arguments you listed, are like the foolish man who built his House upon the sand. That house/faith will fall the first time storms/trails come.

(Not a judgment, just an observation)
Perhaps this is why you ended your question with "I used to be a strong Christian not long ago." In that you built your faith on one of the arguments you listed. You used your arguments as a foundation rather than the building material it was intended to be.

razeontherock said:

I like the way you put that. So often on here people make loaded statements to the effect that Christianity claims to exclude all other perspectives as untrue, which it doesn't. It seems to me that almost all other perspectives prepare a person and a society for Christ. It's not analogous to the writers of the Koran hypothetically claiming to witness Muhammad's resurrection though.

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Whys it different? Different enough so that it wouldn't be a convincing argument also?

Well that's concise! It also speaks to #2 on your list, which I didn't address because each reasoned argument is far too detailed to do justice to on topic w/ the premise of your OP. Personally, I came to the Lord because of reason and logic. There are certainly other posters on CF that can address specific aspects of this better than I can, and there are some good old threads that might interest you. If you look in our Outreach section for threads started by Hamaschiagape you'll find at least one that touches upon some 20+ such arguments. ToHoldNothing explores NC (non-Christian) perspectives. In other parts of CF we've had researchers post from time to time.

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Thanks!

My meager offering is the sheer logic of the original 12 Apostles, all of whom were martyred with the possible exception of 1. So placing the circumstances in a skeptic's vacuum, the strongest allegation you could make is they sincerely believed He rose from the dead, but were somehow mistaken. Of course when you consider Our Lord's elder half-Brother James, that idea evaporates immediately. He was an unbelieving Jew until the Resurrection, after which he became prominent, and possibly the most prominent leader for some time. A mistake doesn't account for such a conversion.

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Couldn't this all be made up though a few years after Jesus death by someone other than the 'Apostles'?

What book? I think you're creating a false dichotomy here. I swallowed Ev theory hook line and sinker, never examining it critically until I was in my 30's and radically saved for over a decade. Which is really strange for me because I scrutinized everything else, especially the Christian Faith. All through Church history, Faith and science have not been opposed. There was some oppressive leadership in the dark ages, but they represented no one else.

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By the way I'm not saying because science is right religion is wrong. The book was 'The Case for a Creator' by Lee Strobel.

Well THAT'S a very long and laborious topic to sift through! Let me try to refine those statements a bit:

1) Some people, and even groups of people, really don't know what the Bible says. Despite their zeal.

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Which means I could be very wrong too.

2) Individual sins can be shown to be differentiated in consequence both in this life and the next, but overall "sin" is universal throughout mankind, and different from individual sins. Some poster has (had?) an avatar proclaiming that the Cross simultaneously dealt with sins, sin, and sinners. I think that's both a valid point and an important distinction.

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I would agree.

The Resurrection refutes that solidly. So do your points 3 - 8.

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If the resurrection were true it couldn't be due to psychology, but I might accept it because I want it to be true, not because it is. 4-7 could also be highly effected by psychology it seems and 3 somewhat.

Do you understand how "the earnest of our inheritance" (Ephesians 1) comes to bear on this?

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No, what does this mean?

Julian of York said:

Now,DN, please go ahead and explain how you are not guilty of breaking these Ten Commandments.
This is the crux of the whole matter. Sin.If it isn't dealt with,God will deal with you. And few people will ever realize this until it is TOO LATE.

Click to expand...

When I was a stong Christian I knew this to be true and even now I know I break all the commandments in the sense Jesus gives to them.

drich0150 said:

Without a true Love for God, all of the other arguments you listed, are like the foolish man who built his House upon the sand. That house/faith will fall the first time storms/trails come.

(Not a judgment, just an observation)
Perhaps this is why you ended your question with "I used to be a strong Christian not long ago." In that you built your faith on one of the arguments you listed. You used your arguments as a foundation rather than the building material it was intended to be.

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Don't you need to know he exists before you can love Him?

When I was a stong Christian some of my faith was likely built on these types of arguments (but everyone believes because of one of these reasons don't they?) but I did, perhaps even do, love God and I loved Him as the greatest thing in life.

You're talking right and wrong, good and bad, which religion pans out better. But imagine whoever created the universe... imagine facing Him. Is he fussing over competing religions? Of course not. He wants to connect with the people that He created.

I like your list. My perspective on these, is that faith is like learning styles -- each person finds different aspects important.

My earliest reasons for coming to faith were about as lame as they get. But it grew into something richer and deeper.

darknova said:

Don't you need to know he exists before you can love Him?

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If you want to know God or of God then Ask, Seek, and knock for the holy Spirit. He will give you exactly what your heart seeks.

Dr. Gary Habermas explains the earliest source of resurrection facts:
Gary Habermas explains the earliest source of resurrection facts « Wintery Knight

darknova said:

Hey!

I'ld like to know out of these (or any others you might want to add) which are the best or strongest reasons for belief in God. I know people believe for many reasons, but for what reasons should one believe and which give the strongest foundation:

1) Historical (Resurrection)
2) Reasoned Arguments (eg: Cosmological, Teleological)
3) Convincing Miracles/Healings
4) Answers to pray/ Big Coincidence
5) Religious Experience/s
6) Thinking God is talking to you
7) Changed lives
8) Unguessable prophecies
9) Religion makes you happy
10) Morality

Just to point out, I used to be a strong Christian not long ago and so I have had experience with all the above so you can assume I know at least the basics.

Thanks

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All of the above. What is the point of this OP? How can I help you return to the Lord?

sacerdote said:

All of the above. What is the point of this OP? How can I help you return to the Lord?

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Because I would say some of them are less reliable than others and so it would be best if i focused on the stongest and more reliable evidence.

darknova said:

Whys it different? Different enough so that it wouldn't be a convincing argument also?

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The answer to this is "yes." Now for the context:

Islam claims no resurrection. If they did their entire system of holy writ is substantially different, such that the argument would not be convincing. The holes you're trying to poke in Christianity would actually work.


DN: Couldn't this all be made up though a few years after Jesus death by someone other than the 'Apostles'?"

My response: NOPE. Several reasons, and again, others can do a much better job of addressing this than I can, but my .02:

1) Multitude of first-hand eye witnesses.

2) Multitude of written accounts.

3) Realistic discrepancies between said accounts, consistent with what we know of human traits like perception; but jno so varied on significant aspects to have any effect other than reinforcing each other's account.

4) Short time between event and it being written down. This gets picked on a lot, but for the era this is REALLY short. Plus, when you understand why it was written down at all, you realize hating on that time span is just ignorance.

5) Multitude of written accounts by students of the original Disciples, ALL agreeing on basics, and showing significant progression of thought in likely and logical fashion. Those writings we can authenticate do indeed bear all the hallmarks of being what they claim. Now you have a LOT of people all saying (essentially) the same thing, and writing it down. In a time period when most of the population is illiterate!

Again, there are other reasons and probably better reasons. These are just what pop into my head ... a VERY important issue to settle in your own heart and mind!



DN: Which means I could be very wrong too.

My response: what the Bible means is actually very knowable. Error can be eliminated, with the only exception being those things we can NOT know. There is some mystery left, but even those can be revealed to us in our best moments; they're just so overwhelming we won't be able to really spell it out for anyone else.


DN: No, what does this mean?[/QUOTE]

My response: "The earnest of our inheritance." Do read the passage (Eph 4?) by all means. This gets RIGHT to the heart of everything you're asking, and the answer is stronger than anything you can imagine! We do have some connection to the archaic language here too.
When we make a major purchase (like a house) we put down "earnest money." Read it with that idea in mind, and I also suggest reading it in different versions and see what you "get." Discussing this passage might just do you more good than any other direction?

darknova said:

Because I would say some of them are less reliable than others and so it would be best if i focused on the stongest and more reliable evidence.

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IMO the most reliable evidence is the tug at your heart, the feeling that God exists, the beauty that He created, your past relationship with Him which still seems viable, and the works and miracles that have occurred in your and others lives that you know.

Joyce Meyer often uses a simple phrase repeated to exemplify her belief it the Triune God. She says, "I know, that I know, that I know, that I know."

Scientific or pseudo-scientific blather will not strengthen belief or faith. If anything, it will cloud it. God created science just as he created all other people, places and things. But we don't go to church with test tubes and bunson burners. We go with our faith (even if it is just a mustard seed in size), and we worship, praise, hear about, discuss, and rejoice in the Lord. If I can be of service to you personally please pm me. God bless.

darknova said:

Hey!

I'ld like to know out of these (or any others you might want to add) which are the best or strongest reasons for belief in God. I know people believe for many reasons, but for what reasons should one believe and which give the strongest foundation:

1) Historical (Resurrection)
2) Reasoned Arguments (eg: Cosmological, Teleological)
3) Convincing Miracles/Healings
4) Answers to pray/ Big Coincidence
5) Religious Experience/s
6) Thinking God is talking to you
7) Changed lives
8) Unguessable prophecies
9) Religion makes you happy
10) Morality

Just to point out, I used to be a strong Christian not long ago and so I have had experience with all the above so you can assume I know at least the basics.

Click to expand...

Different people will find different arguments convincing. I think I've seen teleological and moral arguments as usually being accepted as the most convincing. This is probably because they are easier to understand that some of the more esoteric arguments (what I would group into your category 2) and more objective than the others that you have labeled 3-9. It's hard to trump someone's personal experience with anything though. For those who have had some sort of life altering experience, of course arguments from personal experience will be the most convincing for them, though it would find little persuasiveness for those who didn't have the same experience.

As far as me trying to convince someone else using a theistic argument, I think the one's in your list all fail or are inconclusive for a variety of reasons. Some are too esoteric for people to bother with, some fall short of achieving their goals, some are too subjective to be objectively convincing, and many are open to a variety of interpretations. So, you could say I reject most of the traditional arguments as either not useful or failures. It's not that they are incompatible or inconsistent with what I believe, it's just that I think they are too inadequate for them some sort of touchdown scoring proof. At best, they lead to conclusions that can be very thought provoking, but none of them go the distance and wind up with Christianity as the conclusion. This isn't to say that some of the arguments on that list aren't good or aren't valid or aren't sound. Cosmo arguments are pretty solid. Historical arguments can be very solid. Moral arguments can be very solid. Subjective experiene is pretty solid, it just doesn't convince anyone other than the subject. It's just that these arguments are not complete enough to do what I as a Christian want them to do.

As for me, I find that I am just compelled to believe in the Creator God, the God of Israel, and accept his existence as axiomatic to my entire way of thinking. Since this is an axiom of mine, it will be hard for me to use this system of thought to convince anyone that doesn't also use this system of thought.

The first reason:

Are you a good person? www.livingwaters.com/good/
Why mankind needs a personal Lord and Savior.

The list is benefits after the first is accepted.

Other info.
http://christiananswers.net/gospel/interviewwithgod.html
www.TheBibleProofBook.com, (you will need acrobat reader for this), read The Evidence That Demands A Verdict by Josh McDowell a former agnostic- (its overwhelming circumstantial evidence of bible) and Examine the Evidence by Muncaster a former athiest/The Case for Christ and The Real Jesus by Lee Strobel a former athiest. www.equip.org (articles), http://www.gotquestions.org/,http://christiananswers.net/
http://www.reasonableanswers.org/12-Eyewitnesses-of-the-resurrection.html
http://www.gotquestions.org/canon-Bible.html
http://equip.org/articles/a-defense-of-sola-scriptura
http://equip.org/articles/bible-reliability
The Nature of God
http://hermeneutics.kulikovskyonline.net/hermeneutics/god.pdf

Internal Evidence (prophesies confirmed within bible)
Life of Christ
The Tribe of Judah, Gen 49:10 - Luke 3:23-28
(Genesis was written 4004 BC to 1689 BC)
(Lukes time period 60-70 AD)
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Royal Line of David, Jer 23:5 - Matt 1:1
(Jeremiah 760 to 698 BC)/(Matthew 60 - 70 AD)
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Born of a Virgin, Isaiah 7:14 - Matt 1:18-23
(Isaiah 760 to 698 BC)/(Matthew 60 - 70 AD)
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Rise of Empires
In the book of Daniel, Chapter 2 - four kingdoms are described in the interpretation of a dream of
Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon: Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greek - Daniel 8:21, 10:20/and the fourth
great kingdom to follow- part iron and clay-which is the Roman Empire. During this empire Christ came and his church was established.
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Historical Accuracy
The bible is loaded with historical statements concerning events hundreds of years ago and has not
been proven incorrect in any.
(Bible compared to other ancient documents):
New Testament starts - at 25 years between original and first surviving copies
Homer - starts at 500 years
Demosthenes - at 1400 years
Plato - at 1200 years
Caesar - at 1000 years
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Number of Manuscript Copies-New Testament - 5,686/Homer - 643/Demosthenes - 200/
Plato - 7/Caesar -10
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Consistency/Written by God
Written by at least 40 men over a period of time exceeding 1400 years and has no internal inconsistencies.
It claims to be spoken by God, 2 Timothy 3:16-17. No other religious book makes such claim.
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External Evidences (prophesies outside bible)
These cities were prophesied to be destroyed and never built again.
Nineveh - Nahum 1:10, 3:7,15, Zephaniah 2:13-14
Babylon - Isaiah 13:1-22
Tyre - Ezekiel 26:1-28
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Bible before Science- He hangs the earth on nothing-Job 26:7/Earth is a sphere-Isaiah 40:22
Air has weight-Job 28:25/Gravity-Job 26:7, Job 38:31-33/Winds blow in cyclones, Eccl 1:6
(Job was written at least 1000 years ago; some scholars think 3000 years ago)
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Documents that Prove Bible is True
Gilgamesh Epic, The Sumerian King List, Mari Tablets, Babylonian Chronicles
Archeological Finds
Excavations of Ur, Location of Zoar, Ziggurats and the foundation of Tower of Babel

What I would like to know is, after experiencing all the above, what is hindering your faith now, since you state that you were once a strong Christian?

JESUSIAM said:

What I would like to know is, after experiencing all the above, what is hindering your faith now, since you state that you were once a strong Christian?

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Answered !!!