Possible? Or Not?

[sampson x]

I consider myself a pretty open guy, not because I'm not convinced in my own beliefs but because on these topics I view them a little differently than what it appears most of you do.

Anyways, I should get back to what I want to ask. I was just wondering if it's possible to be a Young Earth Theistic Evolutionist?

Now, don't go all crazy on me right away, hear me out. Here's what I'm trying to see if it could hold any water:

God created the world in 6 days (resting a 7th). Whether actuall 24 hour days or metaphorical, it doesn't matter.

God, in these six days, creates everything, but uses evolution to do it. However, he does not use the long wait for natural selection to figure out what should go where method, but rather speeds everything up, sort of like a catalyst does for a chemical reaction. He would also speed up all geological processes, atomic decay, and everything, for those six days.

Thus, we could have a young, but very old earth all at the same time. This theory would fall right into another theory I have about God and dimensions, but that doesn't belong on this forum.

So, what say you? I know I didn't state any "facts" but that's because what I've put forward is pretty much based on the "facts" represented on both sides. I'm just wondering what you guys think. I'm thinking someone already thought up this idea and was shot down, but I haven't been on the theology forum long, and wouldn't know that.

 

[notto]

If everything was sped up, it would be like nothing was sped up at all. Time is measured by the physical timekeepers. If they are all sped up, it might just as well be said that the time actually passed.

Did the dinosaurs walk faster when they left the tracks we find? Was their gestation period decreased? Did the trees grow faster so they had food?

Did the earth go around the sun faster? If not, why not?
Did the earth spin faster? If not, why not?

 

[invisible trousers]

So...uh...God would go to extreme lengths to fool all His believers into thinking there's an old earth/evolution/big bang/etc ? this happens with yec too but let's ignore it for now

I don't really like the implications of this idea.

 

[LewisWildermuth]

I to dislike this for theological reasons...



It portrays God as too impatient to wait for things, but not willing to do them in another way that would be quicker.



This idea still accuses God of being deceptive by changing the rules that He made since speeding time up would show effects that we do not see.



And scientific ones...



If you speed up a spinning body it will reach a point where it will fly apart, at the rate of time compression needed they Earth, sun, galaxies would simply fly apart. And that would just be the start of the problems.

 

[shernren]

I'd recommend for you to figure a proper stand to take on Origins rather than this ... yes, there probably are good and sound ways to sit on the fence but I really don't think this is going to cut it.

To me this theory sounds most like a "young earth created old" theory, uncoupling the normal evidence of time from the actual passing of time. Not much different in the philosophical implications.

 

[DailyBlessings]

Actually, YEC already demands some kind of crazy hyper-evolution after the flood, so why not?

 

[shernren]

True.

 

[sampson x]

I guess I forgot to explain something. I shouldn't have used the word "Speeding time up" like I did. I should explain more fully.

A: All dimensions have been set up by God for humans. God does not need dimensions. God is not limited to dimensions.

B: Since God is not limited to dimensions, he is everywhere at once because without dimensions, God is not limited to location.

C: Since God is not limited to dimensions, he is at all times at once because without time, he experiences everything at once.

D: Not being limited to time, God knows your every day before it ever happens (to us that is), but does not doom us as some would say that his omniscence would imply. He simply knows what you're going to do. Therefore, we still have free will, but God knows what we'll pick.

That's a little bit more of what I think could be a possibility. In the end, I'm not going to stake my life on it because I don't really see why that part of my theology would get me kicked out of heaven.

Finally, God is not deceiving anyone if he would simply speed up the passage of time. Things don't go faster, just, God made it so that time just simply didn't apply the same for seven days. They still happened, just, time didn't apply. In the end, it's all a part of God's plan, whether the Genesis Story was actual, metaphorical, or neither.

 

[WAB]

Hi, sampson x... You wrote... "B. since God is not limited to dimensions, he is everywhere at once because without dimensions, God is not limited to location."

This is precisely why God the Son, Immanuel (God manifest in the flesh), came. Only by taking on human form could He be confined to the Cross, a very specific location. And..

It is because of His immeasurable love for all of mankind that He "...being in the form (morphe Theo, the Divine nature) of God, did not consider it robbery (something to be grasped) to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross." (Ph'p. 2:6-8, NKJV).

 

[FreezBee]

D: Not being limited to time, God knows your every day before it ever happens (to us that is), but does not doom us as some would say that his omniscence would imply. He simply knows what you're going to do. Therefore, we still have free will, but God knows what we'll pick.

Well, sampson x, you might be right, but don't you think that your suggestion here makes it sound as if our lives are just movies in the mind of God?

And anyway, if God knows everything on beforehand, what does repentance mean then?

Speculative theology can be a lot of fun, but we are humans with the limitations that we happen to have, and we can speculate as much as we desire, it won't change a thing - we have to live our lives subject to temporalities. Maybe God knows each and every decision we make, but for us life requires us to make decisions where we can't be too sure about the outcome. That's just how it is for us.

That's a little bit more of what I think could be a possibility. In the end, I'm not going to stake my life on it because I don't really see why that part of my theology would get me kicked out of heaven.

Well, then what was the problem?


- FreezBee

 

[tamtam92]

God, in these six days, creates everything, but uses evolution to do it.

No it's not possible.
God created a perfect world, without death, and death is necessary to evolution. So there couldn't be evolution before the Fall.

Genesis 1
29And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat. 30And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.
31And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Why would he tell man what to eat, if he had already lived enough to evolve?
How could he say it was very good, if there was death and cruelty in it?

 

[WAB]

sampson x.... How can something be "actual" (or literal) and "metaphorical" at the same time? Here is a very brief study on the word "day" as found in the creation account.

Even though a concept may be grammatically permissible, it may also be precluded by context. A good example of this is found in Genesis 1:3-5 where the Hebrew word yowm is called day. This word may be used literally for the 24 hour day, or for an indefinite space of time in the figurative sense (as The Day of The Lord). The word itself means: to be hot (corresponding to the warm hours). God shows us in the context of separating the light from the darkness (Day from Night) exactly how the word yowm is to be understood here.
It must be recognized that this approximately 24 hour period did not become a solar day until the fourth day; but as the chief purpose of both the light of the first three days and the greater and lesser lights of solar days was to "...divide the light from the darkness..." (Genesis 1:4,18), this can only mean that these days were essentially identical.

In addition, for those who might still bridle at this straightforward approach, He says: "And the evening and the morning were the first day." Note He did not say became the first day! This was the very first approximately 24 hour day (which on day four became our solar days), and as such precludes the aeons of solar days required for life during the so-called gap period.

Written by: W.A.B. 15 Sept.’99

 

[PaladinValer]

Death is not cruel. It is natural. It is good; no death means that the world would have been overpopulated in just 100 years!

 

[sampson x]

This is precisely why God the Son, Immanuel (God manifest in the flesh), came. Only by taking on human form could He be confined to the Cross, a very specific location. And..

Exactly my thought.

FreezBee

]Well, sampson x, you might be right, but don't you think that your suggestion here makes it sound as if our lives are just movies in the mind of God?

[/font]

Not a movie exactly. More like the fulfillment of the PERFECT PLAN designed by THE PERFECT GOD.

And anyway, if God knows everything on beforehand, what does repentance mean then?

Everything. Like I said, God knows everything before it happens, but we don't. We still have to make the choice. God knows what we'll do, but we still have to do it! Think about it this way: God often answers prayers before we ask, but he can't answer prayers if we don't pray them.

No it's not possible.
God created a perfect world, without death, and death is necessary to evolution. So there couldn't be evolution before the Fall.

Interesting point, though I don't know where it says that there was no death. And like Paladin Valer pointed out, without death the garden of Eden would soon get severly overpopulated. Of course, it still would have been perfect, being the perfect garden and all. But then, God knew it wasn't going to last since he knew everything anyways and because it wasn't part of his plan. The Garden of Eden teaches us a very important lesson: Even the most innocent humans brought up in a perfect environment never experiencing sin or the desire to sin before will fall just like the rest of us. God's going to prove it again during and after his Son's 1000 year reign on Earth. I'm sure it won't be exactly the same, but proves the same point.

On a side note, it also shows why no Utopian society will ever work.

sampson x.... How can something be "actual" (or literal) and "metaphorical" at the same time? Here is a very brief study on the word "day" as found in the creation account.

Um, I never said it was actual and metaphorical at the same time. I always said one, the other, or neither (though I'm not sure why I said neither, because I'm not sure how it can be neither.).

But, nice study. I really want to take more foreign language classes so I'm better able to interpret the Bible. Sometimes I feel cheated because I have to read the English Bible and I know that you can't always perfectly translate ideas from one language to another.

 

[tamtam92]

But, nice study. I really want to take more foreign language classes so I'm better able to interpret the Bible. Sometimes I feel cheated because I have to read the English Bible and I know that you can't always perfectly translate ideas from one language to another.

yeah french is good! lol

 

[shernren]

No, study Hebrew and Greek. I'm planning to start studying Koine Greek later in the year with a friend whose father is a part-time theologian. If I remember correctly, Luther once said "Reading the Bible in a translation is like kissing your bride through the veil."

 

[shernren]

Tamtam: I posted this the other day on how I felt about animal death before the Fall and maybe you could look at it and tell me what you think?

Were there carnivores before the Fall?

If YES, then I've proven my point. If God created carnivores in a pre-Fall world logically He intended for it to contain animal death, and He called it "very good". Lions hunting elephants were "very good", sperm whales battling giant squids were "very good", female spiders devouring their male mates after mating were "very good".

Of course the creationist answer has to be NO, because they can't imagine all those being "very good". This however raises immense difficulties:

1. God GLORIFIES HIMSELF through predatory activities.

"Do you hunt the prey for the lioness
and satisfy the hunger of the lions when they crouch in their dens
or lie in wait in a thicket?
Who provides food for the raven
when its young cry out to God
and wander about for lack of food?"
(Job 38:39-41 NIV)

If predation was not part of God's original plan, then it is the result of sin, and verses like these are basically God saying ... "Look at what sin has done for My ecosystems! Look how I provide for animals who need meat because of sin! Look what a testimony sin is to My glory!" ... can you honestly imagine God saying something like that?

God takes credit for the design and sustenance of predators, and so their killing nature cannot be the result of sin.

Come to think of it, what exactly would Jesus as the Lion of Judah be if lions weren't ferocious??

2. The introduction of predation is NOT MENTIONED in the Curse of the Fall.

Thus, isn't saying that "the Fall caused predation" rather like reading something into Scripture that shouldn't be there?

When I look at the AiG argument on this issue: http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v21/i4/oldearth.asp I find that there are surprisingly few references to Scripture. There is one at the end to make them sound all nice and scriptural. And there are a few interspersed about the death of man. But according to evolutionary theory there were no men as life was evolving and so any arguments about whether or not man could die are irrelevant. How do they know that God would not have used animal death? They say this: The god of an old earth can’t be a loving God. and then back it up with what man says about God, and not what God says about Himself.

What God actually says is that His "love" demands genocide, instantaneous death, and suffering even in the lives of believers at times. "God is love" is not "God is cuddly".

 

[gluadys]

sampson x.... How can something be "actual" (or literal) and "metaphorical" at the same time?

Of course something can be literal and metaphorical at the same time. For much of Chrisitan history, biblical scholars took for granted that every part of scripture was metaphorical even when it was also literal. They generally considered the metaphorical meanings of scripture to be the most important meanings, and so sought them out, even when they considered it to have a literal meaning as well.

The idea that a text can have only a literal meaning or a metaphorical meaning but not both is very modern. It dates only back to the rise of modern science, and is really a capitulation to a naturalistic world-view.

 

[WAB]

yeah french is good! lol

Absolutely... especially in the form of French cuisine we partook of while missionaries in French Polynesia many years ago... YUM!!

 

[tamtam92]

Of course something can be literal and metaphorical at the same time. For much of Chrisitan history, biblical scholars took for granted that every part of scripture was metaphorical even when it was also literal. They generally considered the metaphorical meanings of scripture to be the most important meanings, and so sought them out, even when they considered it to have a literal meaning as well.

The idea that a text can have only a literal meaning or a metaphorical meaning but not both is very modern. It dates only back to the rise of modern science, and is really a capitulation to a naturalistic world-view.

Look, she's true :

1 Peter 3:20-21
once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

The Flood literally happened. And the waters were also the symbol of baptism (which is really a symbol of death - the flood - and resurrection - the ark).

And you have symbolism in most of all the true historical accounts of the Bible (Adam & Eve, Israel in the desert, Joshua & Jericho, ...).