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Pope John Paul II: Truth Cannot Contradict Truth

JohnR7

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According to Pope John Paul "Humani Generis considered the doctrine of "evolutionism" a serious hypothesis, worthy of investigation" He does not consider it to be a fact because the theory contains a lot of philosophy and is always in need of revaluation. Evolution theory change as new information become available. Also he warns that evolution alone can not explain life.

Truth Cannot Contradict Truth
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fromdownunder

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1. The "Humani Generis" is a fifty year old Roman Catholic encyclial, not a science paper on Biological evolution.

2. The Pope also said in the paper you cited:

"Today, almost half a century after the publication of the encyclical, new knowledge has led to the recognition of the theory of evolution as more than a hypothesis. [Aujourdhui, pr&#232;s dun demi-si&#232;cle apr&#232;s la parution de l'encyclique, de nouvelles connaissances conduisent &#224; reconnaitre dans la th&#233;orie de l'&#233;volution plus qu'une hypoth&#232;se.] It is indeed remarkable that this theory has been progressively accepted by researchers, following a series of discoveries in various fields of knowledge. The convergence, neither sought nor fabricated, of the results of work that was conducted independently is in itself a significant argument in favor of this theory."

It seems from this part of the paper, he accepts that there is more evidence for evolution than there was 50 years ago.

3. "Evolution theory change as new information become available."

Well, yes to a degree all science changes as new information becomes available. The overarching theory, that living things change over time, and that there is competitiion for resources is unchanged from when Darwin first set it down. "The Devil is in the detail" What's your point?

4. "Also he warns that evolution alone can not explain life."

It never pretended to be able to, depending upon what he meant by "life". It explains a lot about how biological life forms have arrived at where we are today, but when it comes to metaphysical issues, that area belongs to religion, and not science.

I will add that to the best of my knowledge, the Pope was not a Biologist.

Norm
 
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Nathan Poe

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JohnR7 said:
According to Pope John Paul "Humani Generis considered the doctrine of "evolutionism" a serious hypothesis, worthy of investigation"



He does not consider it to be a fact because the theory contains a lot of philosophy and is always in need of revaluation.

The theory is not a fact, and yet evolution is a fact and a theory.

Evolution theory change as new information become available.

Only you and the other Creationists see this as a bad thing. The rest of us call it "learning."

Also he warns that evolution alone can not explain life.

Not human life, anyway.


Indeed. The Church considers man unique among animals because of our ability to communicate and commune with God -- an ability it claims as an article of faith.

Now, if this is so, then evolution alone cannot explain this. However, the development of intellect and will, which are detailed in the article, can be explained through evolution, and these are the tools that man uses to form that relationship with God.

IOW, man has developed the capacity to think above and beyond himself and seek out a higher power. This capacity can be explained through evolutionary means -- We can try to talk to God.

Now, the Church assumes a priori that God exists, hears these communications, and answers. If this is so, then evolution alone certainly cannot explain it -- nor was it meant to.

For the 17,367th time, Johnny, evolution explains biology, nothing more. It is the various Lying Creationist Weasels (LCWs)who have tried to turn evolution into something it is not, for the purposes of knocking down a strawman.

(In all fairness, Militant Atheists Rabblerousers (MARs) have also tried to turn evolution into something it's not. Neither side is doing science any favors by misrepresenting it to push their own agendas.)

John Paul II was warning Creationist and Evolutionists alike of this very limitation: Evolution does not have all the answers, precisely for the reason that it was never meant to -- the Church, naturally, will claim that that's God's department.

Which is precisely why JPII speaks of "several Theories of evolution," because Militant Atheists and LCWs have both tried in the past to manipulate the theory into something it's not.


From a Catholic POV, this is absolutely correct. But because such theories are trying to explain the existence of the spirit, they're not even science anyway -- Evolution is biology only, remember?

What Both Pius and JP were thus warning against were Militant Atheistic propaganda and LCW strawmen -- neither of which were compatable with the "truth" revealed by the Catholic Church.

Again, since they step outside the realm of scientific inquiry, neither of them are all that compatable with science either.

The gist of JPII's article was to remind us all that Evolution is not the ultimate answer to life, the universe, and everything -- it is a specific answer to a specific question, and because of what it does not address, it's certainly no danger to anyone's faith.
 
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JohnR7

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tattedsaint said:
so what does this mean in disproving evolution?

So often I read in a post on here that the Pope accepts evolution as if he were a evolutionists. I do not feel that is accurate. We need to take a little bit close of a look at what he is really saying on the subject.
 
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JohnR7

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shinbits said:
But wouldn't a man of such stature as Pope John Paul II saying that it's "worthy of investigation" just lend credibility to it?

Perhaps but the point that the Pope is making is that: "The Bible in fact bears an extraordinary message of life". It is the Bible that he feels has credibility and is much more important to investigate compared to man's theorys.
 
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JohnR7

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Nathan Poe said:
The theory is not a fact, and yet evolution is a fact and a theory.

That is NOT the opinion of the Catholic Church. The Pope says: "to tell the truth, rather than the theory of evolution, we should speak of several theories of evolution. On the one hand, this plurality has to do with the different explanations advanced for the mechanism of evolution, and on the other, with the various philosophies on which it is based."

From there the Pope goes on to say we need to get into a discussion of Theology to see the true light and the contribution God has made to creationism.

That is still a long way from the people who would try to claim the catholic church accepts evolution as a fact, when they do not accept it as a fact.
 
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MewtwoX

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Quote mining John?


You do realize the passage you quoted has to do with the difference between Atheistic Evolution and Theistic Evolution, right?

The fact that you completely misconstrued it to mean acceptance of Creationism is incredibly dishonest.
 
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MewtwoX

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JohnR7 said:
Yet us know if you ever want to join us in the real world. Or are you comfortable in that pretend world that your living in?

Ignoring my argument then?

I guess I have no choice but to assume I'm right for the time being...
 
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Nathan Poe

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Exactly, several theories. The real McCoy, and the LCW and MAR strawmen.

The real thing is more than a hypothesis, and as a scientific theory, has tons of evidence to support it -- off of which he had already claimed.

From there the Pope goes on to say we need to get into a discussion of Theology to see the true light and the contribution God has made to creationism.

Theology, yes, Creationism, no.


That is still a long way from the people who would try to claim the catholic church accepts evolution as a fact, when they do not accept it as a fact.

They accept the evidence which supports the theory. That evolution does occur is the undisputed fact which is a key piece of evidence to the theory.

The problem is, John, that JPII is referring to support of the real Theory of evolution, and then goes on to warn against strawmen.
 
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JohnR7

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Nathan Poe said:
They accept the evidence which supports the theory. That evolution does occur is the undisputed fact which is a key piece of evidence to the theory.

I do not think so. I think you are reading into it something that is just not there.
 
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JohnR7

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shinbits said:
But wouldn't a man of such stature as Pope John Paul II saying that it's "worthy of investigation" just lend credibility to it?

Actually that was something he quoted from the encyclical Humani Generis OF POPE PIUS XII. I would imagine they give it some credibility in that they do not renounce is as false doctrine or false teaching. But I do not think they go as far in supporting it as some people would like to lead us to believe. His main statement seems to be that it is impressive that the theory has the support from science that it does. No where does he suggest that the church supports it to that degree.
 
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Nathan Poe

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JohnR7 said:
What do you mean by evolve? Evolutionists define evolution anyway they want to define it.

The biological definition: Change in alliele frequencies over time.

This happens -- there's no debate.

Now, the Theory of evolution explores the causes and effects of those changes -- why the frequencies change, and what happens when they do.

Similarly, gravity, insofar as "things fall down," is a fact. why they fall down and not to the right is what the theory of gravity explains using the data as it is known so far.

Really, Johnny, it's not all that difficult -- It's been explained so many times, one could only miss the point through concentrated effort.
 
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JohnR7

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Nathan Poe said:
The biological definition: Change in alliele frequencies over time.

This happens -- there's no debate.

If this is so much a "fact" then why are there so many species that remain the same from the beginning. Crocodile have not changed, Turtles have not changed. There are ancient plants that are still the same as they were from the beginning and have not changed.
 
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