Poll shows backlash on gay issues

Equivocation Wolsley:

The right to voice opposition to homosexuality "without being called homophobes or bigots…" is not a First Amendment right. The right to voice your religious views, including opposition to homosexuality is a First Amendment right, but it does not encompass a right to be free of counter-criticism.

I do agree that the likely consequences of recent developments are a restriction of everyone's liberties. That is precisely because today's conservative Christians would rather burn the country down around our ears than simply let other Americans enjoy the same rihgts and privelages as their own.

Wolseley said:

So now if a Christian believes that homosexual activity is a sin, that he objects to it on moral or ethical grounds, then the 1st Amendment no longer applies to that Christian? He cannot say that he feels such activity to be a sin according to his religion? He doesn't have the same right to freedom of speech as every other American?

Wow.

This is precisely what disturbs me about the whole "gay rights" issue---in their zeal to press for their own rights, be they real or imagined, the "gay rights" advocates seem to have no problems whatsoever in trampling on the rights of everyone else, with the added element that if you dare to disagree with them in the slightest degree (which usually means anything less than a complete and vigorous wholehearted support for any and all forms of homosexual behavior), then you are fair game to be subjected to treatment that for virtually any other group on the surface of the planet would be considered a hate crime.

142 years ago, the issue of slavery contributed to a division of this country that literally split it in half, led to four years of warfare unparalleled in its violence, and the effects of which are still being felt today......and we nearly didn't make it out of that war in one piece.

About 36 years ago, the issue of the Vietnam War contributed to a division between hawks and doves that led to nearly a decade of demonstrations and violence, again, the effects of which are still being felt today.

I wonder if this issue will lead to a similar division, splitting the American public in half, and whether the effects of such a division might eventually eclipse both of the other examples above......

I wonder.

I'm a fairly tolerant guy, so long as nobody tries to trash the Catholic Church (in which case they'll hear from me); and while I have my political views, which are conservative, I don't expect everybody in the country to agree with them.

But when somebody tries to tell me that the constitutional rights of American citizens are now suspended because said citizens happen to disagree with current liberal opinion on the topic of homosexuality.....then we have moved out of the realm of disagreement and into something much, much more sinster, and much, much more serious.

I wonder where this is going to end, and what it's going to lead to. And I suspect it is not going to be pretty.

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You CAN believe that homosexuality is wrong. You CAN believe homosexuals all eat babies and are wrong. You can BELIEVE anything you want. However the moment you try to MAKE YOUR BELIEFS LAW WHEN THEY INFRING UPON ANOTHER'S FREEDOM is when you will be blasted from a legal stand point.

You're confusing the criticism you're recieving, you're jumbling 2 types of criticism into 1.

1.) From a liberal stand point you are a biggot. From a conservative stand point liberals are immoral baby killers.

You can sling mud as much as you want as long as it doesn't turn into slander in which case the other person has a legal right to stop you.

2.) You're being criticized for pushing your beliefs onto others. You are denying a people rights because they are different than you. This is not much different than when african americans were discriminated against and legally made into third class citizens who did not have the same rights as other americans. At one time certain races were not able to be wed for the same reason you are denying gays this right.


So no, your rights are not being infringed upon. However you never had the right to deny another person who has commited no crime their rights.

Pete Harcoff said:

One thing of note, is that in statistics of whether or not people are accepting of homosexuality, younger people tend to be much more accepting than older people. I think you'll see a gradual social shift, as the current generation matures and the previous generation disappears.

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And between this, assisted suicide, excesses of the homeland security measures, and the inevitable coming global clash with the pan-Islamic empire that gave us Our Good Friends on 9/11, I for one am profoundly grateful that my time on this miserable little planet is rapidly winding down. Like Paul, I am anxious to depart this sphere and be with Christ.

Yes, Wolesley, I agree, the time is very short for this perverted planet. Judgment stands at the door.

I am quite amazed at the lack of elementary reasoning ability that I've witnessed with some folks here in regards to the subject of tolerance. It seems as though those who espouse the doctrine of tolerance the most are the most intolerant of any who would suggest a course contrary to their fetishes and perversions. The very word brings to mind such virtues as patience, meekness, forbearance, and long-suffering. Wouldn't it make sense that those who are tolerant would be the most supportive of freedom of speech and of the press? In other words the free expression of ideas. I know that those whom I hear the "tolerance" word from the most like to express their ideas, almost as though they were campaigning or preaching or some such thing. Why, if they were really tolerant one would think that they would print bumper stickers that say "Tolerate Hate" or "Tolerance is Natural".

There is a principle which the folks who declare free speech as a right and most children know very well and that is that "words will never hurt me". So what if someone says something false or slanderous about me or my beliefs, if what I stand for is true, noble and honorable then I have nothing to worry about. The truth needs no defense, it stands upon it's own merits and cannot be upset. However, if what I represent is a lie, treacherous and deceptive, then wouId I seek to defend it by force and lies, since a lie cannot stand upon it's own merits (it proves itself false). The lie is therefore extremely vulnerable and must be fortified by more falsehoods and distractions in order to appear that it stands, just as a magician seeks to conceal the reality behind his tricks.

So, today, deceivers seek to protect their actions by enacting hate crime legislation. As if to say that all "other" crimes are love crimes. Crime is already a hateful, unlawful act. So, why all the horn blowing to make that which is already unlawful and hateful, unlawful again? It's like trying to make water wetter. Could you expect any better logic from those who coined such a redundancy as "hate crime"? There is a purpose behind all the fluff and that is not only to remove free expression, but also and especially the judgment that the truth brings. They demand tolerance for their diversity of perversions, yet they are loathe to tolerate the diversity of the expression of others. That, in a nutshell, is the essence of hypocrisy.

The ideas of "tolerance" and "hate crimes" are mutually exclusive.

Can you say "cognitive dissonance"?

Satisfied

Wolseley said:

So now if a Christian believes that homosexual activity is a sin, that he objects to it on moral or ethical grounds, then the 1st Amendment no longer applies to that Christian? He cannot say that he feels such activity to be a sin according to his religion? He doesn't have the same right to freedom of speech as every other American?

Wow.

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Wow indeed. You have an uncanny abililty of putting words into my mouth.

Let's look at this again:

>>>>We would like to be able to voice our religious beliefs without being called homophobes or bigots or hatemongers or whatever.<<<<

You don't have that right.

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You don't have the right to voice your opinions WITHOUT being labeled homophobes or bigots. You have every right to voice that opinion, but no right to be exempt from backlash.

This is precisely what disturbs me about the whole "gay rights" issue---in their zeal to press for their own rights, be they real or imagined, the "gay rights" advocates seem to have no problems whatsoever in trampling on the rights of everyone else,

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Completely false. The ones who want to trample the rights of others are the religious zealots. Those Christians are the ones wanting special rights to silence homosexuals, make homosexuality punishable by law, keep homosexual marriage illegal, and allow for free discrimination against homosexuals in employment and housing for examples. No one is trampling on your rights at all.

with the added element that if you dare to disagree with them in the slightest degree (which usually means anything less than a complete and vigorous wholehearted support for any and all forms of homosexual behavior), then you are fair game to be subjected to treatment that for virtually any other group on the surface of the planet would be considered a hate crime.

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What a joke...

But when somebody tries to tell me that the constitutional rights of American citizens are now suspended because said citizens happen to disagree with current liberal opinion on the topic of homosexuality.....then we have moved out of the realm of disagreement and into something much, much more sinster, and much, much more serious.

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The homophobes are the ones trying to suspend the rights of American citizens. They want special rights to do so and a free liscence to hate.

You know, I just got to say this and I know im going to catch alot of flack for it, but I believe what I believe, its my right, lol. All this ..freedom of speech, free expression, liberal rights....BOLOGNA!!!!! God's word is as straight as it can be, read it! It isnt't right and he doesnt condone it, PERIOD!!!!! As it was put a few pages back.......
"What I don't understand is why God would care so much about this issue. Wouldn't God be happy that people are actually loving each other and not hating each other even if it was between two men or two women? "
If he was happy with just that, then this wouldnt even be an issue now would it? He wasnt happpy with it then, he isnt happy with it now. Whats he going to do, say, "oh I changed my mind, I see things different now, I guess I shouldnt have destroyed Sodom and Gomora, ooooppsss, sorry." I dont think so. Someone said christians just try and make everything fit what they want. Well take the bible word for word or dont take it at all. Its as plain spoken as you can get. I dont have anything against gays, I know quiet a few and are friends with them, but I believe they are going to answer to him for theyre life style, regardless of what they think. I dont preach to them, but they know what I think and feel, and theyre ok with that. More power to them. I feel there has gotten to be too many free speech liberals that have changed everything the real believers and followers of Christ are trying to be. The bible says dont take away from or add to. Plain as can be! Sorry if I offended anyone, but now im using my (as you like to call it) freedom of speech. AMEN, AND GOD BLESS YOU ALL.

Newchild said:

You know, I just got to say this and I know im going to catch alot of flack for it, but I believe what I believe, its my right, lol. All this ..freedom of speech, free expression, liberal rights....BOLOGNA!!!!! God's word is as straight as it can be, read it! It isnt't right and he doesnt condone it, PERIOD!!!!! As it was put a few pages back.......
"What I don't understand is why God would care so much about this issue. Wouldn't God be happy that people are actually loving each other and not hating each other even if it was between two men or two women? "
If he was happy with just that, then this wouldnt even be an issue now would it? He wasnt happpy with it then, he isnt happy with it now. Whats he going to do, say, "oh I changed my mind, I see things different now, I guess I shouldnt have destroyed Sodom and Gomora, ooooppsss, sorry." I dont think so. Someone said christians just try and make everything fit what they want. Well take the bible word for word or dont take it at all. Its as plain spoken as you can get. I dont have anything against gays, I know quiet a few and are friends with them, but I believe they are going to answer to him for theyre life style, regardless of what they think. I dont preach to them, but they know what I think and feel, and theyre ok with that. More power to them. I feel there has gotten to be too many free speech liberals that have changed everything the real believers and followers of Christ are trying to be. The bible says dont take away from or add to. Plain as can be! Sorry if I offended anyone, but now im using my (as you like to call it) freedom of speech. AMEN, AND GOD BLESS YOU ALL.

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It's not "bologna" because it is protected under the constitution. "God's word" is completely irrelevant here, it is unconstitutional to legislate religion.

Newchild said:

You know, I just got to say this and I know im going to catch alot of flack for it, but I believe what I believe, its my right, lol. All this ..freedom of speech, free expression, liberal rights....BOLOGNA!!!!!

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It's not "BOLOGNA!!!!!" at all because that's how our government works and those are the rights protected by our constitution.

This is just more evidence that some Christians want the government to give them special rights to trample on the rights of others for no legal or rational reason.

What does our government really have to do with Christianity these days besides stopping everything to do with it in public. We were founded on In God We Trust. Now, God has no place in Government and most of America's public places anymore. People wonder why our youth are in so much trouble all the time. Put religion back in school and maybe things will change for the better. I dont want the gov. to give me any special rights, I dotn agree with most of the gov. anyway. The constitution is just something you liberals hide behind to make yourselves feel justified about anything that doesnt go your way. God is relevent in all things, like it or not! I love this stuff, lay it on me and lets talk, AMEN.

Newchild said:

What does our government really have to do with Christianity these days besides stopping everything to do with it in public.

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False. People can freely exercise their religious practices even in public if they so choose. The government, however, has no right to specifically endorse one religion over any other or over non-religion. The government is meant to be secular as per the first amendment.

We were founded on In God We Trust.

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False. That motto is only about a half century old. Our original motto was a Latin phrase meaning "Out of Many, One." A secular motto.

Now, God has no place in Government and most of America's public places anymore.

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God never had any place in the government. That is the purpose of the first amendment. The second statement is false.

People wonder why our youth are in so much trouble all the time. Put religion back in school and maybe things will change for the better.

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Put religion back in school and you are trying to get the government to give your religion special privelidges.

Furthermore, correllation does not necessitate causation. One could just as easily claim that ever since schools were integrated and not segregated, our youth has been in so much trouble, so maybe if we re-segretate schools, our youth will change for the better. Besides, religion gives so many people in this country a free liscence to hate, it certainly isn't doing us very much good trying to grant those people special rights.

Most importantly, the first amendment forbids what you are proposing and that's all that matters.

I dont want the gov. to give me any special rights, I dotn agree with most of the gov. anyway.

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If you want the government specifically endorsing your religion as the one true religion and using that religion as an excuse for inequality and improper functioning of the government, then yes, you do want the government to give Christians special rights.

The constitution is just something you liberals hide behind to make yourselves feel justified about anything that doesnt go your way.

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So the constitution has nothing to do with guiding our government? That's a new one.

As mecha bliss said "In God we trust" was a 20th century addition.


The coin motto had been born. Congress was approached and "An Act in Amendment of an Act entitled, `An Act Relating to Foreign Coins and the Coinage of Cents at the Mint of the United States,' approved February twenty-one, eighteen hundred and fifty-seven," was passed by Congress on April 22, 1864. That Act contained the phrase "...and the shape, mottoes, and devices of said coins shall be fixed by the director of the mint, with the approval of the Secretary of the Treasury;. . ." Mint Director Pollock had carte blanche and could, at his discretion, Christianize our coins.


To further dismiss your false notion that this was a country founded for christians you would do well to know that Washington, Jefferson, Franklin, and Payne were all deists, they weren't even christian! Thomas Payne even wrote a book on the subject, "Age of Reason". In it he dismisses christianity and explains his point of view.

Tribe said:

When an entire group of people define themselves by what kind of sex they desire, are they not outlining that kind of sex as the major defining component of their lifestyle? When they plaster their cars with flags to make sure everone knows that they are gay (rainbow flag, pink triangle, yellow & blue plus sign), or gay AND into S&M (Black white & blue flag with a red heart), or gay and into older hairy men - aka "bears" (that one's a flag with a bear on it on and stripes of various shades of brown and orange).
I don't define myself as a heterosexual Christian, or a heterosexual parent. My heterosexual friends and family do not fly special flags to let the world know what flavors of sex they prefer. We don't rely upon parades with nudity and public obscene sexual displays to display our "pride" in our sexual orientation. I don't use a special accent as a result of my sexual tastes, as so many gays are recognizable by the way they speak. (That's been true, in my peresonal experince on both coasts, and many places in between.)
It kind of seems to me to be a lifestyle for many homosexuals.

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I am not defined by my sexual desire are you? And if I never have sex, i will still be gay. If you stop having sex will you no longer be straight?

The symbolism is pride in who I am. Do you not have a cross? I didn't label who I am as gay, someone else did, I hate labels, and if I had to chose one for myself, it would be human.

And just to clarify the yellow and blue plus sign, is an equality sign, it has nothing to do with being gay, it's a human rights sign.

Inspired said:

The symbolism is pride in who I am. Do you not have a cross? I didn't label who I am as gay, someone else did, I hate labels, and if I had to chose one for myself, it would be human.

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A human who's very talented with poetry and writing

"envisions an America where lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender people are ensured of their basic equal rights, and can be open, honest and safe at home, at work and in the community"

[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]! How DARE they do something so repulsive as organize a group to represent themselves in a democracy so they can have the same rights as everybody else?! BURN THE HERETICS!

Are gays not humans? Are they not asking for rights that others have? Are they not the only group of people denied these rights, explaining why it's a gay only movement?

Wait... please don't answer that, i don't wanna have to reply to it.

Gay rights are human rights.

Considering homosexuals are the last group of people in the country against which it is acceptable to freely discriminate and promote inequality and intolerance, I'm not sure what other group to which it would currently apply in this country anyway.

Smilin said:

A human who's very talented with poetry and writing

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Sup smilin

Tribe said:

Not according to your compatriots here, here, or here.


Apparently your "Human Rights" group is actually " the largest national lesbian and gay political organization, envisions an America where lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender people are ensured of their basic equal rights, and can be open, honest and safe at home, at work and in the community. "

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www.hrc.org

Just because a number of the people who believe in human rights are gay, and the organization that fights for human rights believes gays and lesbians are humans, doesn't mean that everyone who has that sticker is GLBT, a great many are those who simply support human rights.
The only thing you should assume about anyone, is that they are human.