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steve_bakr said:Islam does not accord Jesus Christ the honor he deserves, as it denies his atoning sacrifice on the cross, his resurrection, and his rightful place as Son of God at the right hand of the Father. Does that address your question? Perhaps I should have been more clear about that.
I do believe, as I said, in engaging with Islam in a positive manner by recognizing what it does acknowledge about Jesus--ie., his birth by a virgin and his miracles--and building on that. Doing that requires a constructive use of the Quran, and acknowledgment that Islam refers to the God of Abraham and OT prophets. This provides a constructive basis for dialogue. Can you live with that?
I hope this addresses the import issue that you raised.
Peace of the Lord be with you.
"The heavens declare the glory of the Lord" (Psalms 19:2a)
You know full well it doesnt.You have just talked around it avoiding the inevitable logic that if God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit and as Islam does not honour Jesus Christ for who He is, the God the Son, then clearly Islam doesnt acknowledge God who is Father Son and Holy Spirit.I hope this addresses the import issue that you raised.
brightmorningstar said:Steve Bakr,
You know full well it doesnt.You have just talked around it avoiding the inevitable logic that if God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit and as Islam does not honour Jesus Christ for who He is, the God the Son, then clearly Islam doesnt acknowledge God who is Father Son and Holy Spirit.
Sure some believers went out and were not of them but the text then goes on to say " whoever denies" and "every spirit that denies"I believe that the verses from 1 John that you are referring to are not written about other religions that have as yet an imperfect understanding of God, but to those Christians who were taught by the apostles but instead preached a different Gospel than that which they were originally taught--
1 John 2:19 NKJV
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us."
brightmorningstar said:Steve Bakr,
Again you decline to address the points, you just give your own opinion which is again basicaly contrary to what the scriptures say
Sure some believers went out and were not of them but the text then goes on to say " whoever denies" and "every spirit that denies"
1 John 2:22 "Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist--denying the Father and the Son."
1 John 4:3 "but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world."
4.2 John 1:7 "I say this because many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist."
What scripture have you got that indicates every spirit doesnt include spirits of other religions? What scripture have you got that indicates whoever doesnt include whoever?
When elsewhere it says love your neighbour does that mean not everyone? What scripture have you got to support these assumptions?
You have just once again avoided the inevitable logic that if God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit and as Islam does not honour Jesus Christ for who He is, God the Son, then clearly Islam doesnt acknowledge God who is Father Son and Holy Spirit.
as previously agreed.Acts 17 is an example of how Paul used the contextualism of another religion and pagan writers to reach out to the followers of another religion. The ECF also used other religions and philosophies to forward and even explain Christianity. St Augustine said that all truth wherever it occurs belongs to the master and St. Athanasias said that all truth is from the Holy Spirit. That is why we need to acknowledge what Islam does recognize about Jesus, and build on what we share in common with each other. I think I have said that from the beginning.
Peace of the Lord be with you.
brightmorningstar said:Steve Bakr,
as previously agreed.
So you agree then that if God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit and as Islam does not honour Jesus Christ for who He is, God the Son, then clearly Islam doesn't acknowledge God, because His is Father Son and Holy Spirit.
Calling Islam a lie of Satan is completely counterproductive to peace because it is a tacit philosophical approval of armed conflict.
Epiphoskei said:The latter does not follow logically from the former at all.
But, beside which, it seems the focus on "calling" Islam a lie of Satan obfuscates the central question, is Islam actually a lie of Satan or not? As last I checked, an ideology which grabs a hold of people's minds and rejects redemptive truth is generally classified as a demonic stronghold to be fought against in spiritual war (and no, that doesn't imply earthly war). Islam does not acknowledge Christ in the way it actually matters, and does not serve as a stepping stone on the road to that acknowledgment. I do not see how one can argue that a few trifles about Christ in Islamic teaching will open the door to faith when the whole essence of Islam's focus on the oneness of God to the exclusion of the possible deity of Christ slams and bolts shut that door with far more force.
Why would you ask that? I referred to God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, but surely you know that is what we call the Trinity. Why did you think you needed to clarify that.You are referring to the Trinity.
Yes we know that.These are fundamental differences between Christianity and Islam.
So as God is Father Son and Holy Spirit, and not as Islam believes, Islam doesn’t recognise God.No, Islam does not acknowledge God as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as you and I believe God to be
Ah now you are looking at what Islam says again, not what Christ says. Your view is Islamic or comparative religion and not Christian. Christ said whoever denies the Son denies God, and to the Jews He said He is their God (before Abraham was born I AM) Islam isnt Israel and denies the Son. Thus your view is Islamic.At the same time, Islam recognizes the one God, as stated in Deuteronomy 6:4: "Hear O Israel, thy God is but one Lord",
Are you sure? Jesus said love even enemies, the only time any violence occurred with Jesus and His disciples/apostles was when an ear was cut off one of the arresters. Jesus healed the ear and said those who live by the sword will die by the sword. Did Mohammed organise military style campaigns and have the Jewish woman who tried to poison him, killed?Christianity and Islam can peacably and respectfully disagree.
I agree, but all the same let us know the truth and not deny it even if it is counterproductive in witnessing.Calling Islam a lie of Satan is completely counterproductive to peace
For Islam maybe, see above, but not for Christianity.because it is a tacit philosophical approval of armed conflict.
Then I would say that is another Islamic view, how can a believer in Christ's NT teaching call any teaching that denies the very nature of Jesus the risen Son of God anything but trifles.I wouldn't call the Quranic teachings about Christ "trifles."
brightmorningstar said:Steve Bakr,
Then I would say that is another Islamic view, how can a believer in Christ's NT teaching call any teaching that denies the very nature of Jesus the risen Son of God anything but trifles.
As to the approach to witnessing to Muslims the best approach so far is witness Christ's love and holiness in ones lifestyle to Muslims and pray that God will reveal Himself to them. Jesus Christ is revealing Himself to many Muslims at this time in dreams. Then they come to know Him. They dont know Him through Islam.
How do you suppose we are supposed to do that if we are doing oppsoite things?Let us, then, pursue a life of holiness and live Christ's love for one another.
John 16:33Peace of the Lord be with you.
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