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Point One of What is a Fundamentalist

JazzHands

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Interestingly, that's a very conservative, pragmatic philosophy anyway. All rational minds tend to 'shoot their wounded' because it seems so obvious to us. I'm in awe of your knowledge of scripture and I would never think of contesting it but I'm coming from a slightly tangential origin, that is, I'm a lax Christian from a fallen society and I want to find a bridge.. a way of reconciling my peers to what I believe is the passport to freedom. You guys are on a different level so I'm playing serious catch up!
 
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JazzHands

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Absolutely AMEN! Jesus is coming soon, and I want to be faithful!
Oh I don't think you have any concerns in that department... if God's judgement were based on a bell curve with me at the peak, you'd be dancing on his right palm!
 
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com7fy8

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I have understood that being fundamentalist means you understand that God's word means what He says.

But a human can put one's own meaning on what God's word says.

Also, we can pick and choose which scriptures get our main attention.

In my case, it is "easier" > not really easy, according to Proverbs 13:15 > to use scripture to point at others and congratulate myself.

For example, how well is Ephesians 4:31-5:2 getting our attention, or Philippians 2:13-16, or 1 John 4:17-18???

And there is all which Hebrews 12:4-14 says comes because of God's correction . . . not our own self-willed discipline.
 
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JazzHands

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Great post! Lads.... work your magic!!! I've got my notepad at the ready!
 
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com7fy8

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JazzHands

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The above needed to be corrected. I put in the wrong Proverbs reference.
lol... well I certainly wouldn't have noticed! Are you sure you're not closet fundamentalist? You're certainly very well informed!
 
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BaptistBibleBeliever

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I have understood that being fundamentalist means you understand that God's word means what He says.

But a human can put one's own meaning on what God's word says.

Also, we can pick and choose which scriptures get our main attention.

We are literalists. That is we take it literally where it can be and we take it figurative where context leads.

There are those that read "into" their interpretation and those that read "out" in their interpretation. The latter is the proper way to read the Bible. Another thing we avoid is allegory which permits for many interpretations of a single verse. There is only one interpretation while there might be a few "applications." No verse is of private interpretation which means that we do not derive our doctrine from a single 'proof-text.'

And yes, we are guilty of preferring some Scriptures over others - but I'm not sure there isn't a group out there that do the same.

Nothing to argue over though.
 
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JazzHands

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Fascinating! Thank you for the insight! Back shortly guys... telephone call! Don't go away!
 
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BaptistBibleBeliever

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The Rise of Fundamentalism --- The Five Fundamentals

~~~ John Shelby Spong

Spong is an admitted liberal. Why do you suppose he should have a voice in the Fundamentalism forum? We are not liberals and frankly do not care what the liberal thinks of our "funny" views.
 
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BaptistBibleBeliever

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This forum may be a better fit for me than where I thought I should be posting. I'll be watching!

We would love to have you join us. It is our prayer that we rebuild the temple of fundamental truth. Always remember, "For a great door and effectual is opened unto me, and there are many adversaries" (1Co 16:9 KJV).

The Bible is our Final Authority!
 
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com7fy8

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we are guilty of preferring some Scriptures over others -
Well, there are scriptures which might call for more attention. So, this would not be guilty.

But in case something is guilty, it needs to be changed.

"Do all things without murmurings and disputings:

That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;

Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither labored in vain."
(Philippians 2:14-16, King James)

"Do all things without complaining and disputing, that you may become blameless and harmless, children of God without fault in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you shine as lights in the world, holding fast the word of life, so that I may rejoice in the day of Christ that I have not run in vain or labored in vain." (Philippians 2:14-16, New King James)

So, God commands us to do every single thing and every m-a-r-r-i-e-d thing "without murmurings and disputings". So, if God commands this, He knows it is realistic to expect us to do this > because He is able to change and correct us so we live the way His love has us living "without murmurings and disputings". And if we do not, we are not living in His love.

And in this love we are "blameless and harmless" and "without rebuke" > even right "in the midst of" this evil and dangerous world's "crooked and perverse generation" > "in the presence of mine enemies", David says, in Psalm 23:5.

So, I would think a Bible claiming group would give more attention to a scripture like this, which brings us to how God is able to have us loving. And this could be scripture to memorize so we can help people to understand that by stopping our murmuring and disputing which are anti-love things, we can grow more in Jesus and how Jesus in us makes us blameless, harmless, and without rebuke, and able to love.

Now . . . by the way . . . would you use other sources in studying the King James translation? Would you, for example, use the New King James scripture quoted above in order to study the King James translation of Philippians 2:14-16?
 
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com7fy8

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Are you sure you're not closet fundamentalist?
I have shared with various people who have said to check if what they say is in the Bible.

I think that even if ones are with groups who do things not obviously directed in the Bible, still when they do study the Bible they can hold themselves to what they are discussing. So, with such people, even though they might not do everything by exactly what is written, I can learn things the Bible says.
 
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BaptistBibleBeliever

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I believe that a Bible-believer ought to respect the Author of Scripture enough not to willingly "handle the word of God deceitfully." We know that we must one day give an account to God for everything we have done in our life, and among the most important things will be how faithful we were to His Word. No one would want to stand before God knowing that he willingly misrepresented the Bible in order to influence the thinking or actions of others.

Yes, I agree with you that love ought to be our chief concern in dealing with others. Jesus mentioned that it was part of the greatest commandment. Honestly, though, love is also demonstrated by telling folks the truth. It doesn't seem very 'loving' to diagnose a persons lost condition and to explain the consequences of rejecting Jesus Christ. A person that is saved is happy that someone helped them to understand the bad news so that they could intellectually respond to the good news.

As to the NKJV . . . I would not. The KJB is translated from the common language of the people whereas the Bible put out by Liberty University is actually using the Siniaticus/Vaticanus texts from which all the other versions are based on. They do this dishonestly by not admitting their change from the TR to the Egyptian texts.
 
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DeaconDean

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I have been a member here since 2005. And a member of this area also.

The problem is, when this sort of topic comes up, it also carries the stigma of "KJVOism".

In 1878, when Fundamentalism was formed, what did they say regarding the scriptures?

"1. The verbal, plenary inspiration of the Scriptures in the original manuscripts."

14 point creed of the Niagara Bible Conference of 1878

Now you said:

"Have we succumbed to the view that all these things are true ONLY in the originals, and does not apply to the oldest English Bible in the English-speaking world?"

Sorry, but that was the standard viewpoint when Fundamentalism was founded. We have moved away from that.

I uphold that view, (The verbal, plenary inspiration of the Scriptures in the original manuscripts) but I am the exception.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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mark kennedy

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Yes, when it comes to the fundamentals of the faith I agree wholeheartedly with my fundamentalist brethren. I've meandered through various theologies, finally deciding on Calvinism for my personal systematic theology of choice. Like Luther I am captive to the Scriptures and find no other source of God's will and work of redemption that even comes close.
 
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BaptistBibleBeliever

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In 1878, when Fundamentalism was formed, what did they say regarding the scriptures?

Perhaps the term "fundamentalism" was coined in 1878, but is it fair to say that there were no fundamental doctrines prior to that year?

As to the KJV being written in 1611, if it is truly based on the Textus Receptus - the common tongue of the people, then the Word of God has been faithfully held and preserved since the day that pen was set to paper and sent to the churches by the Apostles.

My stand on the KJB is based on faith in a God that promised He would preserve His Word faithfully unto all generations, which is why I prefer the term "biblicist" to "fundamentalist"
 
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DeaconDean

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I knew it would come to this.


First off, can you prove that claim?

Fact, we know for a fact that the first "copies" came just a little over a century after the last Apostle died.

And another fact, there was no "standard" of "canon" until AD 200 and later.

Let me point this out to you:

"Corruptions of the text appeared at a very early date. Reuss says, "It may be asserted with tolerable certainty that the farther back we go in the history of the text the more arbitrarily it was treated." Differences between New Testament manuscripts appeared within a century of the time of its composition, and additions and alterations introduced by heretical teachers were early a cause of complaint. Tischendorf says, "I have no doubt that in the very earliest ages after our Holy Scriptures were written, and before the authority of the church protected them, wilful alterations, and especially additions, were made in them." Scrivener says that the worst corruptions to which the New Testament has ever been subjected, originated within a hundred years after it was composed, and Hort agrees with him. Unlike the text of the Koran, which was officially fixed from the first and regarded as sacred, — for a century and a half at least, the greatest freedom was exercised in the treatment of the New Testament writings. These writings were not originally regarded as Holy Scripture. Copies of the writings of the Apostles were made for the use of individual communities, and with no thought of placing them on the same level with the Old Testament. Accordingly, there would be little effort at punctilious accuracy, and little scruple in making alterations.

Variants meet us as soon as quotations from the apostolic writings occur at all in later authors, and that both in catholic and heretical writers. Heretics felt the necessity of seeking for their peculiar doctrines a support which should secure for them a place within the church with whose tradition they were, at many points, in conflict. Thus they were driven to interpret the apostolic writings in harmony with their own systems.

Accordingly, we find, in the earlier Apologists, allusions to wilful corruptions and misinterpretations. Thus, Irenæus (Adv. Hær. III, 12) declares that "the others (besides Marcion), though they acknowledge the Scriptures, pervert their interpretation." Tertullian (De Præsc. Hær. XXXVIII) says that Marcion and Valentinus change the sense by their exposition. "Marcion," he continues, "has used a sword, not a pen; while Valentinus has both added and taken away." Marcion mutilated the Gospel of Luke in the interest of his antijudaistic views, although it should be said that some of his variations were doubtless taken from manuscripts in circulation in his time. Both Tertullian and Epiphanius go through his work in detail, indicating the mutilation point by point.

Such perversions called forth attempts at textual criticism. Origen (Comm. on Matthew) remarks on the diversity of copies arising either from the negligence of scribes or the presumption of correctors. He frequently discusses various readings, and comments upon the comparative value of manuscripts and the weight of numerical testimony. He seldom attempts to decide on the right reading, being rather inclined to accept all conflicting readings as contributing to edification. His value is in reproducing the characteristic readings which he found. There is no sufficient evidence of a general revision of the text by him, as maintained by Hug.

Again, minute care was not exercised in the preparation of manuscripts. In some cases they appear to have issued from a kind of factory, where the work of transcribing was carried on on a large scale. Portions of the same manuscript seem to have been copied from different exemplars and by different hands, and it does not appear to have been thought necessary to compare the two exemplars, or to harmonise the disagreements. Moreover, changes of reading were introduced by individual bishops, who had the sole authority over the public reading of Scripture, and these changes, unless very violent, would soon become as familiar as the old readings, and would pass into the versions."

A History of Textual Criticism of the New Testament, Marvin Vincent, 1899, Part I, Part II, Textual Criticism of the Early Church.

That right there blows that assertion out of the water.

My stand on the KJB is based on faith in a God that promised He would preserve His Word faithfully unto all generations, which is why I prefer the term "biblicist" to "fundamentalist"

Salvation by faith in the finished work of the risen Savior, has been preserved for all time.

However, the assertion of God "preserving" His word in the KJV is ridiculous.

Fact, we also know that the KJ Translators made heavy use of Theodore Beza's Codex D. The problem with that is careful study shows that at least 18 different scribes, at 18 different times worked on that Greek MS.

Also, are you aware that until the 14th century, there is no record of the phrase "Holy Ghost"?

There is no reference in the scriptures of "holy ghost". The ones that are there, are incorrect.

Another fact: the earliest "gospel" written would be that of Mark. Written about AD 65. By this time, Luke was nearly 3/4's of the way done writing the book of Acts. Fact: Luke set the precedence that every Apostle would follow thereafter. Throughout the book of Acts the third person of the Trinity is always referred to as "pneuma" (spirit).

"Pneuma" (wind, air) is identified by Luke in Acts 2 when the Holy Spirit descends at Pentecost by the description "as a mighty rushing wind. "Pneuma" is also where we get our English word "pneumatic".

Luke uses the Greek word "pneumatos", yet the KJ Translators rendered it as "ghost". A completely different Greek word! (φάντασμα, phantasma)

You ABSOLUTELY will not find in ANY of the Greek MSS the phrase "agios phantasma" (Holy Ghost)!

In each any every reference to the 3rd person of the Trinity, scripture always uses the Greek word "pneuma" and NEVER phantasma!

In fact, the Greek word "Phantasma" always refers to the evil, undead.

Example: we read in the Textus Receptus:

"οἱ δέ, ἰδόντες αὐτὸν περιπατοῦντα ἐπὶ τῆς θαλάσσης, ἔδοξαν φάντασμά εἶναι, καὶ ἀνέκραξαν· -Mk. 6:49

The bolded word is:

Original Word: φάντασμα, ατος, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: phantasma
Phonetic Spelling: (fan'-tas-mah)
Short Definition: an apparition, ghost, spirit
Definition: an apparition, ghost, spirit, phantom.

Source

Here the obvious reference is a "disembodied siprit, "ghost"" of a dead person.

Nowhere in the scriptures will you find one reference to the Holy Spirit as such.

Here is another example:

"For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.' -Lk. 1:15 (KJV)

Here is an example where the KJ translators got it wrong.

In The Greek, it reads:

"ἔσται γὰρ μέγας ἐνώπιον [τοῦ] κυρίου, καὶ οἶνον καὶ σίκερα οὐ μὴ πίῃ, καὶ πνεύματος ἁγίου πλησθήσεται ἔτι ἐκ κοιλίας μητρὸς αὐτοῦ," -Lk. 1:15 (GNT)

And there is your proof. "πνεύματος ἁγίου" (Holy Spirit).

I do not see the phrase "ἁγίου φάντασμα" (holy ghost)

Want more?

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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DeaconDean

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You identify with "Baptists", so do I.

Lets see just how far apart you really are with them. You said:

"if it is truly based on the Textus Receptus".

Fact, the words "textus receptus" was a "advertising blerb" by the Elzevir brothers who included:

"“[the reader has] the text which is now received by all, in which we give nothing changed or corrupted”. Or: " From this advertisement the name Textus Receptus (TR) is derived."

And its funny, the words "textus receptus" didn't appear until 22 years AFTER the "Authorized Version" was issued.

If God preserved "His word faithfully unto all generations" as you said, Jesus' death on the cross didn't secure anything.

Shocking?

As a Baptist, we believe that we submit to baptism out of obedience to the Savior. Its symbolic of our union with Christ in His death, burial, and resurrection.

However, if God "preserved" His word in the KJV, then our "baptism" really is meaningless.

According to Acts 2:38:

"Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

Everything you have been taught by Baptists MUST be thrown out the window and you must convert to Catholicism as they have the correct doctrine concerning baptism!

Fundamentalism teaches:

"Faith is a vital principle. "If it hath not works, is dead, being alone" (James 2:17,18). Two things are required of the believer, immediately upon his profession of faith in Jesus as Saviour and Lord, namely, verbal confession and water baptism. "With the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation" (Romans 10:10. See also Psalm 107:2; Matthew 10:32,33; Romans 10:9; 1 John 4:15, etc.) "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved" (Mark 16:16). The believer is not saved because he is baptized; but, baptized because he is saved. We are saved through faith alone, but not the faith that is alone, because "Faith without works is dead, being alone." Water baptism is a divinely ordained ordinance whereby the believer witnesses to the world that he died with Christ, and is risen together with Him," an habitation of God through the Spirit. (See Matthew 28:19,20; Acts 2:38,41; 8:12,13,16,36,38; 9:18; 10:47,48; 16:15,33; 19:5; 22:15,16; Romans 6:3,4; Colossians 2:12; 1 Peter 3:21; 1 John 2:3; 3:22).”"

The Fundamentals: A Testimony to the Truth, Book III, Theology, Chapter 12, The Doctrines that Must be Emphasized in Successful Evangelism, By Evangelist L.W. Munhall, M.A., D.D

And indeed, Baptists teach this also.

However, this directly contradicts what Acts 2:38 says. (If it is the God "preserved" word)

There is absolutely no forgiveness for sins without baptism!

"be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins"

Baptists teach:

"Christian baptism is the immersion of a believer in water in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. It is an act of obedience symbolizing the believer's faith in a crucified, buried, and risen Saviour, the believer's death to sin, the burial of the old life, and the resurrection to walk in newness of life in Christ Jesus. It is a testimony to his faith in the final resurrection of the dead." -BF&M 2000

Yet that contradicts:

"be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins"

If Acts 2:38:

has been faithfully held and preserved since the day that pen was set to paper

You and I have no alternative than to renounce being Baptist and Fundamentalist!

Are you sure you want to maintain your position:

has been faithfully held and preserved since the day that pen was set to paper

I'll take it one step further.

Baptism is the key to everything!

Shocked?

"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;" -Mk. 16:16 (KJV)

You absolutely cannot be saved without being baptized! That is, according to the KJV and Mk. 16:16!

Are you sure you want to maintain your position:

has been faithfully held and preserved since the day that pen was set to paper

I have been a Baptist and Fundamentalist since 1974. That's 44 years. Ordained as a Baptist Deacon, and licensed to preach for almost 20 years. And not once have I been taught or taught others that to be saved not only must I believe, but I have to be baptized also. Not once in 44 years have I been taught or taught others that in order to have my sins forgiven, I have to be baptized.

Forgiveness of sins and salvation contingent upon baptism.

Are you sure you want to maintain your position:

has been faithfully held and preserved since the day that pen was set to paper

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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