Pluto 2000

[AV1611VET]

It's the year 2000.

You are teaching senior level astronomy at a local high school.

You have a student that, for some reason, consistently leaves Pluto out of the picture as one of the nine planets.

The reason he gives for doing so is simply, "I don't know."

The final is coming up, and your students are instructed that they have one week to build a three-dimensional model of the solar system.

You warn your one student that he is entitled to believe that Pluto isn't our ninth planet if he wants to, but he must comply with standard models, or you will have to count it wrong.

He does so, and gets and A+ on the final.

Value question: In your opinion, is he wrong about Pluto?

 

[NGC 6712]

It's the year 2000.

You are teaching senior level astronomy at a local high school.

You have a student that, for some reason, consistently leaves Pluto out of the picture as one of the nine planets.

The reason he gives for doing so is simply, "I don't know."

The final is coming up, and your students are instructed that they have one week to build a three-dimensional model of the solar system.

You warn your one student that he is entitled to believe that Pluto isn't our ninth planet if he wants to, but he must comply with standard models, or you will have to count it wrong.

He does so, and gets and A+ on the final.

Value question: In your opinion, is he wrong about Pluto?

Yes

 

[Freodin]

"He" isn't wrong about Pluto... "he" is wrong about his reasons.

But there is no "he", it is just you projecting your views on a different person. That means YOU are wrong here. Wrong about how science works, wrong about scientific education (should) work.

I really don't know much about the american educational system, so I don't know exactly what "senior level" is. Age 16, 17, 18? Last two or three years?
Whatever... a student in Germany would not be told "to build a model complying with the standard models" - what could he possibly learn from that? He would rather be told to build a model... and explain it!
He would be evaluated not on how closely he met the pre-determined setup, but how and how well he explained his setup.

This is the goal of scientific education... not to teach students "facts", but to get students to reason.

 

[Freodin]

I remember a nice exercise from my school days... "junior level" I guess you would call it.

You have two small identical looking bars of metal. One of them is simple iron, the other one is magnetic. How do you find out which one is which, when you have nothing but these two metal bars?

 

[Loudmouth]

It's the year 2000.

You are teaching senior level astronomy at a local high school.

You have a student that, for some reason, consistently leaves Pluto out of the picture as one of the nine planets.

The reason he gives for doing so is simply, "I don't know."

Then the student fails. He must give a well thought out reason as to why Pluto should not be included in the same group as Mars and Neptune.

 

[NGC 6712]

Whatever... a student in Germany would not be told "to build a model complying with the standard models" - what could he possibly learn from that? He would rather be told to build a model... and explain it!

That is not necessarily true. When I was at MPA about 10 years ago we went to some local schools and they were told to do just this kind of thing - I was disappointed actually because these were gymnasiums not crap schools. It was just memorisation and recitation.

This is the goal of scientific education... not to teach students "facts", but to get students to reason.

Ideally - rarely happens in any country though.

 

[thaumaturgy]

The year is 1500 BC.

You are teaching children about animals.

You ask young Meschach to list the fowl.

He lists all of them but says he will not list "bats" as fowl.

When asked he says "I don't know".

You turn to the holy Scripture, Leviticus, in which GOD EXPLICITLY lists bats as "fowl" in Leviticus chapter 11.

In your opinion, was Meschach wrong to NOT list bats as fowl? Or was God wrong to list Bats as fowl?

Has religion changed? Has God fundamentally changed?

Does this example negate all of Judaism and Christianity?

If not, then why does the Pluto example cause problems for science? If Pluto's classification as a "planet" or de-classification as "planet" is a serious problem for science then why wouldn't this be a serious problem for God? (Science never claims perfection, but God is, by definition, perfect).

 

[Freodin]

That is not necessarily true. When I was at MPA about 10 years ago we went to some local schools and they were told to do just this kind of thing - I was disappointed actually because these were gymnasiums not crap schools. It was just memorisation and recitation.


Ideally - rarely happens in any country though.

Well, I have to admit that I went to a Bavarian gymnasium. But you are right... what I have said is an ideal case.

 

[NGC 6712]

Well, I have to admit that I went to a Bavarian gymnasium. But you are right... what I have said is an ideal case.

This was Bavaria - I was at MPA at Garching just outside Munich.

 

[Freodin]

This was Bavaria - I was at MPA at Garching just outside Munich.

Ouch... ok, ok, I went to a franconian Gymnasium.

Well, either standards have changed in the last thirty years (wouldn't surprise me), or we were just an outstanding example of good teachers using good teaching methods to get good results.

 

[NGC 6712]

Ouch... ok, ok, I went to a franconian Gymnasium.

Well, either standards have changed in the last thirty years (wouldn't surprise me), or we were just an outstanding example of good teachers using good teaching methods to get good results.

My experience in four countries (US, UK, Australia and Germany) is that high school education is all about the same. Good schools, bad schools, good teachers, bad teachers. My guess is that this pattern is pretty much standard in most industrialised nations.

 

[Split Rock]

It's the year 1400.

You are teaching senior level astronomy at a local high school. On the weekends you torture and burn witches at local villages.

You have a student that, for some reason, consistently claims that the earth orbits the sun. The reason he gives for doing so is simply, "I don't know."

The final is coming up, and your students are instructed that they have one week to build a three-dimensional model of the solar system.

You warn your one student that he is entitled to believe that earth isn't the center of the solar system if he wants to, but he must comply with standard models, or you will have to count it wrong.

He does so, and gets and A+ on the final.

Value question: In your opinion, is he wrong about Earth?

 

[Guy1]

Why is this in the Creation V Evolution forum?

 

[mkatzwork]

Why is this in the Creation V Evolution forum?

No idea, but I think whatever AV's idea with the post was, it just got pummeled.

 

[RickG]

It's the year 2000.

You are teaching senior level astronomy at a local high school.

You have a student that, for some reason, consistently leaves Pluto out of the picture as one of the nine planets.

The reason he gives for doing so is simply, "I don't know."

The final is coming up, and your students are instructed that they have one week to build a three-dimensional model of the solar system.

You warn your one student that he is entitled to believe that Pluto isn't our ninth planet if he wants to, but he must comply with standard models, or you will have to count it wrong.

He does so, and gets and A+ on the final.

Value question: In your opinion, is he wrong about Pluto?

I have never taught astronomy, but I have taught physical science in grades 6-12 and even a couple college courses in geology.

I would give the student the grade he/she deserved based on the entire project. Including Pluto as part of the solar system I would not penalize the student unless he/she specifically labeled Pluto as a planet.

I know you don't like it that Pluto has been down-graded from a planet and that is okay from an opinion point of view. My point would be, if the student is going to designate Pluto as a planet, are they also going to say it is flat and only 6,000 years old? Science corrects its mistakes and advances. I don't think living in the past is helpful.

 

[Naraoia]

I remember a nice exercise from my school days... "junior level" I guess you would call it.

You have two small identical looking bars of metal. One of them is simple iron, the other one is magnetic. How do you find out which one is which, when you have nothing but these two metal bars?

I feel kinda stupid. The best idea my brain can come up with right now is to start moving them back and forth relative to each other, and whichever one zaps you is not the magnet. I somehow think that's not how induction works, though

Can you bend them?

 

[mkatzwork]

I remember a nice exercise from my school days... "junior level" I guess you would call it.

You have two small identical looking bars of metal. One of them is simple iron, the other one is magnetic. How do you find out which one is which, when you have nothing but these two metal bars?

It's a clever demonstration of how people don't really think about magnetism in quite the way it really works...it's not so simple as "if they're magnetic they'll stick to each other" but that's still how most of us think about during every day life....

 

[Wiccan_Child]

It's the year 2000.

You are teaching senior level astronomy at a local high school.

You have a student that, for some reason, consistently leaves Pluto out of the picture as one of the nine planets.

The reason he gives for doing so is simply, "I don't know."

The final is coming up, and your students are instructed that they have one week to build a three-dimensional model of the solar system.

You warn your one student that he is entitled to believe that Pluto isn't our ninth planet if he wants to, but he must comply with standard models, or you will have to count it wrong.

He does so, and gets and A+ on the final.

Value question: In your opinion, is he wrong about Pluto?

Yes. It would be like someone in 1991 saying they lived in the country of Croatia - nowadays they'd be right, but back then they'd be wrong.

 

[Loudmouth]

AV,

Why don't you tell us why Pluto should be in the same category as Neptune and Earth. If you are not able to do so, then we can hardly blame astronomers for not putting them together.

 

[Split Rock]

AV,

Why don't you tell us why Pluto should be in the same category as Neptune and Earth. If you are not able to do so, then we can hardly blame astronomers for not putting them together.

Because it was called a planet for decades by SCIENTISTS!

Everyone believed the Big Pluto Lie, because the SCIENTISTS said it was a fact!!

Now SCIENTISTS want us to pretend they never told us the Big Pluto Lie as a FACT!!!