Plurality of Elders

[bsd058]

So I'm going through Grudem's Systematic Theology in the Ecclesiology sections and have come across a good case for the plurality of elders as the model for the New Testament church.

I thought Grudem was making his case very well until he said that nowhere in Scripture does the Bible indicate or imply a single elder or a single pastor to be the leader of a church.

I was wondering about the seven "angels" in the churches that John wrote to in Asia Minor. The general consensus is that these angels are the messengers sent to the churches and are leaders in some respect.

Do these passages speak of a single leader (possibly with elders under him) or do they speak of apostolic assistants sent to certain places to help establish the churches in doctrine?

How do you who hold to plurality of elders view these passages?

Thanks.

 

[JM]

I thought Grudem was making his case very well until he said that nowhere in Scripture does the Bible indicate or imply a single elder or a single pastor to be the leader of a church.

bsd,

Do you believe scripture teaches single Elder lead congregationalism?

jm

 

[Iosias]

Do these passages speak of a single leader (possibly with elders under him) or do they speak of apostolic assistants sent to certain places to help establish the churches in doctrine?

No one knows for certain; during the apostolic age the structure would have been fairly fluid and I doubt we can speak of the NT model. Just think about Rome; there the church was composed of multiple congregations that met in homes.

As an episcopalian, I would highlight both Timothy and Titus who has oversight of more than one single congregation.

 

[twin1954]

As you know the word angel here simply means messenger. I believe it is obvious, since pastors are one of the ascension gifts of Christ to His church, that in Rev. 1:20 it is talking about pastors.

I hold to a plurality of elders under the pastor if the congregation is large enough to need them. I am a Baptist but do not hold to a deacon board running things or the congregation voting.

 

[bsd058]

bsd,

Do you believe scripture teaches single Elder lead congregationalism?

jm

No, I don't think so. I think Grudem puts together a really good case for Plurality of Elders (POE). But I was just wondering about the messengers in the churches of Asia Minor.

Polycarp, if I'm not mistaken was thought to be the "angel of the church at Smyrna" by some people. So I figure the angels are probably a reference to certain bishops. But why is only one elder addressed in each church, if this is the case? Why not all?

Augustine seemed to hold to the same view, but he held to it because the holy angels do not fall.

I was just wondering if a single lead elder, with assistant elders is in view here, or if possibly these are viewed as something different. I was just caught off guard by Grudem's statement, and he never addresses these angels in his discussion.

I know I shouldn't try to glean didactic from prophecy unless it was specifically meant to teach us about the subject we're considering, but I guess I'm trying to figure out why a single bishop (which seems to imply a single elder having to give an account) was written to instead of the angels (plural) of those churches (which would imply POE).

 

[JM]

...why is only one elder addressed in each church, if this is the case? Why not all?

It really comes down to how you understand the opening chapters. I understand the opening chapters of Revelation to be largely symbolic,

"Revelation is organized in sevens, the symbolic number of completeness (Gen. 2:2-3). The choice of seven churches not only expresses this theme but hints at the wider relevance of the message to all churches in all times (2:7, 11, 17, 29; 3:6, 13, 22; 1:1, 3; 22:7, 11-14, 16, 18-21)."

"Who are the “angels” of the churches? The underlying Greek word can mean simply messenger. So some people have seen here messengers who physically carried the document and delivered it to the churches. Others have seen here the pastors of the churches, in their capacity as message bearers of God. But the visionary context of the Book of Revelation indicates that Revelation has actual angels in view. Specific angels have evidently been given responsibility with respect to specific churches, in a manner analogy to the attachment of heavenly “princes” to specific nations in Daniel 10:12-11:1. God’s heavenly presence is the power-center for the entire universe. The heavenly and earthly realms therefore interlock, and situations and processes in heaven have correspondences in mysterious fashion to processes on earth. Thus the same messages go both to heavenly angels and corresponding church in earthly locations." The Returning Kind by Poythress

Either way, Angels or Pastors, I don't know if we should read Revelation in a literalistic manner.

jm

 

[bsd058]

It really comes down to how you understand the opening chapters. I understand the opening chapters of Revelation to be largely symbolic,

"Revelation is organized in sevens, the symbolic number of completeness (Gen. 2:2-3). The choice of seven churches not only expresses this theme but hints at the wider relevance of the message to all churches in all times (2:7, 11, 17, 29; 3:6, 13, 22; 1:1, 3; 22:7, 11-14, 16, 18-21)."

"Who are the “angels” of the churches? The underlying Greek word can mean simply messenger. So some people have seen here messengers who physically carried the document and delivered it to the churches. Others have seen here the pastors of the churches, in their capacity as message bearers of God. But the visionary context of the Book of Revelation indicates that Revelation has actual angels in view. Specific angels have evidently been given responsibility with respect to specific churches, in a manner analogy to the attachment of heavenly “princes” to specific nations in Daniel 10:12-11:1. God’s heavenly presence is the power-center for the entire universe. The heavenly and earthly realms therefore interlock, and situations and processes in heaven have correspondences in mysterious fashion to processes on earth. Thus the same messages go both to heavenly angels and corresponding church in earthly locations." The Returning Kind by Poythress

Either way, Angels or Pastors, I don't know if we should read Revelation in a literalistic manner.

jm

Thanks, JM.

I might need to rethink this section. At least it's becoming more clear to me that I probably shouldn't be drawing inferences like what I posted above from this prophecy.

Thanks to the rest of you, too. Some insights for me to think about.

Prov 27:17