Pledge Unconstitutional

MyJhongFist · Jun 27, 2002

Originally posted by seebs

No one should ever be compelled to make a statement he doesn't believe in. I'd rather see those of us who believe in God remain aware that, not only this country, but this world, and indeed, this *universe* are "under God", and let the people who have doubts swear to the country, alone, if they wish.

 

I agree whole heartedly.  Those who have doubts can swear to whatever they want.  But if the roles were reversed, I would not be campaigning to change the ways of the world.

Noone is being compelled to make any statement that they do not believe in.  remember that noone HAS to say the pledge.  People do have the right not to do so....

seebs · Jun 27, 2002

I dunno where you went to school, but I got in *BOATLOADS* of trouble with the school people for refusing to say the pledge. Until the morons went to my parents to say "he won't swear to this, make him say it". And my parents said "if he doesn't believe it, why should he say it?".

(I was, at the time, objecting to "liberty and justice for all", because, in the infinite wisdom of a 7-year-old child, I had concluded that the country was not entirely fair.)

Brimshack · Jun 27, 2002

On Coercion: If the issue were direct coercion of the believer it would be a free exercise issue. The point of the establishment clause is that government endorsement has a coercive power in itself, and that refusal to participate in public religion can lead to stigmatization. No the law in question doesn't force any individual child to participate, but depending on the community in question, the decision to opt out can have serious social consequences. The point here is that no-one should have to suffer such consequences as a result of disagreement with an official state religion.

On Majoritarianism: This is indeed a democracy (or a Republic to be a bit more precise), but that does not entail struct majoritarian rule. The very point of the Bill of Rights is to place some forms of legislation off limits to the democratic process. That's why it says "Congress shall make no law" The point is that it cannot be done, regardless of the vote behind it. Appeal to majoritarian principles in the context of a 1st amendment issue like that is a bit of a red herring.

Once again, no individual is being prevented from saying the Pledge anymore than any individual was prevented from praying as a result of the Abington School District case which conservative politicians have been lying about for decades. What both these decisions block is an official government policy initiating such activities.

On the Firemen in the Gay Pride parade. Fair enough, that was wrong. It has no real bearing on this issue.

On the religious nature of the event: Several attempts have been made to say that the reference to God is neutral enough to make this a non-religious issue. One problem with that would apply to the nature of the reference. It is a public ritual intended to affirm loyalty to the U.S. The addition of this reference to God to the oath serves to place the entire ritual 'under' the authority of God. In other words, it is a patently religious act, a kind of prayer in itself. The context of the reference alone should shut down this line of argumentation.

Mallory Knox · Jun 27, 2002

Originally posted by the worthy one
Who says you have to agree with it? Recognition is not acceptance.

You can't force someone to RECOGNIZE your religion, you can't force someone to PRAY TO YOUR GOD.

Not Prince Hamlet · Jun 27, 2002

Originally posted by MyJhongFist

You are going WAAAAAAYYYY out with this point, Jeff.  You are also showing that you are willing to equate me with a NAZI to keep your own point of view. 

Yes, you are correct. I am willing to equate you to a Nazi if you are willing to say that something is right merely because you outnumber somebody else.

In my hypothetical scenario, people are allowed to believe whatever,  WITHOUT the fear of death or persecution.

You have no idea what it's like to be an atheist in this country. Without fear of persecution indeed.

 

Nazis loathed dissention.  I however love people who challenge my point of view.  That's what is so great about America.

 

America is great because you love people who challenge your point of view?

Did you miss the post where the lady above said that that if we didn't love this Christian nation, we should just leave?

Evidently, not every Christian in this fine country is as fine a specimen of tolerance as you.

   Jeff

 

Not Prince Hamlet · Jun 27, 2002

Originally posted by TheBear

Fox News/AP - Friday, March 01, 2002

PROVIDENCE, R.I. Firefighters who were allegedly forced by the city government to ride in a gay pride parade last year despite religious and moral objections are threatening to sue unless officials make participation in future parades voluntary.
Last June, members of Engine Company No. 7 rode on an engine through downtown Providence as part of the privately-run parade. The fire department's policy is to send personnel and equipment to public events whenever requested to do so, provided they can be spared, according to Fire Chief James Rattigan.

...

This June will mark the 27th year the parade has been held. Mayor Vincent Cianci Jr. will serve as its grand marshal.
"The department believes that such regular involvement in local and community celebration adds to the whole of the festivities and fosters a public perspective on the fire department and related public safety issues," Mansolillo wrote in his response to Brown's letter.
"Firefighters' inclusion in the parade is generally an important demonstration of community solidarity," Jennifer Levi of the Boston-based Gay and Lesbian Advocates and Defenders said.

Alexis Gorrianan, the mayor's liaison to the gay community and president of the Rhode Island Pride Committee, which runs the parade, did not return a call for comment. The Associated Press contributed to this report.

Hmmm. That's a tough call. If their job description says that they have to attend public events when they can be spared, then it might be appropriate for them to have to go to this one. But if that's the case, they should also be obligated to go KKK parades, too, if requested, and Neo-Nazi marches, and any other public events. In other words, it must be all or none, and it must be clearly in their job description so that they knew what they were getting in to.

    Jeff

 

Not Prince Hamlet · Jun 27, 2002

Originally posted by psycmajor
Sigh

 

Psychmajor,

 Don't you mean, "Psy"? 

   Jeff

 

Mallory Knox · Jun 27, 2002

Originally posted by MyJhongFist
 Noone is being compelled to make any statement that they do not believe in.  remember that noone HAS to say the pledge.  People do have the right not to do so....

But the pledge is about AMERICA, not about religion. Why should you be excluded from pledging allegiance to the United States if you're not Judeo-Christian?

Not Prince Hamlet · Jun 27, 2002

Originally posted by Mallory Knox

But the pledge is about AMERICA, not about religion. Why should you be excluded from pledging allegiance to the United States if you're not Judeo-Christian?

Exactly, and while we're on the subject, let's consider this:

What exactly does "under God" add to the Pledge of Allegiance.

I mean, this thing existed for a very long time until it was added in the 1950s as a deliberate and admitted attack against atheism.

So, other than attacking atheism (which is unconstitutional for a government to do), what do these two words add that everybody's fighting for?

Traditional values? Don't be ridiculous. The thing existed without those words first.

Unity? The pledge summed that up rather nicely before the words were added.

In fact, the only thing I see that the words added was the implicit statement: "If you are a God-fearing monotheist, we love you in our country. If you are an atheist, get the f*** out."

BTW, to the guy who has two atheist friends who allegedly are ok with this, I participate on a forum (whose URL I'm forbidden to post here) where a great many atheists are practically dancing in the streets over this ruling. And not one of them to my knowledge has said they don't support this ruling.

    Jeff

P.S. Oh yes, we know this will be overturned. Atheists are quite used to being discriminated against, and we're just happy for even the minor recognition that we are Americans just as much as the Christians.

 

Mallory Knox · Jun 27, 2002

Mallory Knox · Jun 27, 2002

Originally posted by the worthy one
So the pledge can still be said with "under God" then if you so choose? 

Hey you can say it with "under God" like it was before if you want. But it just won't be the official pledge.

Mallory Knox · Jun 27, 2002

Originally posted by the worthy one
The fact is this is just going to be another way for someone to make another law restricting religious freedom.

HOW IS THIS RESTRICTING YOUR RELIGIOUS FREEDOM?

So whats stopping them from saying no more bulletin boards advertising Christian events, bookstores, radio stations etc?

A whole heck of a lot.

Mallory Knox · Jun 27, 2002

Originally posted by Susan
America was founded upon freedom of worship.
This means that we may mention GOD WHENEVER and WhErEvEr we PlEaSe!
(sorry for the half caps, lol lol I do that when I'm REALLY mad. . . )
The Pledge of Allegiance should remain legal as it is. If you don't like it, fine, then move somewhere else.
The athiests who wish to ban public expressions of Christian faith are hypocritical: they are forcing atheism on the public.
This is not Soviet Russia!
Go OuT aNd SaY tHe PlEdGe ToDaY!

You CAN mention God whenever you please.

But now others can't be FORCED to.

Get it? Get it?

MyJhongFist · Jun 27, 2002

Originally posted by Not Prince Hamlet

Yes, you are correct. I am willing to equate you to a Nazi if you are willing to say that something is right merely because you outnumber somebody else.

Welcome to Democracy.  There are scads of things that are legal in this country that I personally balk at, but they are legal because the majority said it should be so. 

That's what makes America great.  I don't have to like it.  Someone else might.  So they have the right to partake of that particular thing and I have right not to.

Is that naziism to you?

Originally posted by Not Prince Hamlet
You have no idea what it's like to be an atheist in this country. Without fear of persecution indeed.   

 

Is someone beating on your door with an automatic weapon, telling you that you cannot be an atheist?   I don't think so.  
  That's my definition of persecution.  What's yours? 

[America is great because you love people who challenge your point of view?

Did you miss the post where the lady above said that that if we didn't love this Christian nation, we should just leave?

Evidently, not every Christian in this fine country is as fine a specimen of tolerance as you. 

  

Click to expand...

Whoever said that has NO IDEA what America is all about.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

MyJhongFist · Jun 27, 2002

Originally posted by Mallory Knox

You CAN mention God whenever you please.

But now others can't be FORCED to.

Get it? Get it?

Noone was forcing them before.

As I said before.  I know people who proudly say the entire pledge, but stay silent during those 2 words.  It is their right to do so.

I am also sure that they didn't go home crying every night about how the pledge was forcing them to believe anything. 

Mallory Knox · Jun 27, 2002

Originally posted by MyJhongFist

Noone was forcing them before.

As I said before.  I know people who proudly say the entire pledge, but stay silent during those 2 words.  It is their right to do so.

But the PLEDGE officially said "under God" which is the government supporting a certain few religions and ignoring the rest. And that is clearly unconstitutional.

Not Prince Hamlet · Jun 27, 2002

Welcome to Democracy.  There are scads of things that are legal in this country that I personally balk at, but they are legal because the majority said it should be so. 

Yes, there are laws like this, and when it's constitutional, I support them. The Constitution is designed to protect the rights of American citizens. When a law is unconstitutional, it means that someone is being discriminated against.

 

That's what makes America great.  I don't have to like it.  Someone else might.  So they have the right to partake of that particular thing and I have right not to.

Is that naziism to you?

No, that is not Naziism. Naziism is when we believe that by virtue of being numerous, we are right and that we have a right to do as we feel regardless of who might be hurt by it.

Is someone beating on your door with an automatic weapon, telling you that you cannot be an atheist?   I don't think so.  
  That's my definition of persecution.  What's yours? 

"You know, I just don't understand why those blacks wanted to sit in the main part of the movie theater, or in the front of the bus. They had themselves a very nice section all to themselves. They weren't being discriminated against."

Like I said, you don't have a clue about what it's like to be an atheist in this country, or to the level of persecution that goes on.

Odd, you'd think Christians would be a mite sympathetic, seeing how they've tooted the old persecution horn for centuries. But there has been no time in the history of Christianity where Christians had been persecuted and atheists hadn't been. (Except maybe the comparatively brief stint in Communist Russia.)

 

Whoever said that has NO IDEA what America is all about.

Ok, since you seem to have the inside track about what America is about -- to the point where you can discard the Constitution -- do tell: what is America "all about"?

And while you're at it, please address my point: what do the words "under God" add to the Pledge that you're so willing to fight to keep them in there?

   Jeff

 

Mallory Knox · Jun 27, 2002

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion.

Not Prince Hamlet · Jun 27, 2002

Noone was <I>forcing</I> them before.

Jeeze, didn't you even read the case? This whole thing started because people were forcing people to say the pledge. And even if they weren't doing so explicitly (though these people were), it was still given official sanction.

I repeat: what do those two words add to the Pledge that weren't there before the 1950s.

 

As I said before.  I know people who proudly say the entire pledge, but stay silent during those 2 words.  It is their right to do so.

Well, gee, if they stay silent during those 2 words, they aren't saying the entire pledge, are they?

 

I am also sure that they didn't go home crying every night about how the pledge was <I>forcing</I> them to believe anything. 

How are you sure? Were you peering through their windows at night?

A lot of people aren't as unspoken as I am. They feel uncomfortable admitting that they feel persecuted, but will still feel it just the same.

It reminds me of sexual harassment. A lot of women don't feel comfortable saying "leave me alone, you creep" and people think that because the women aren't saying anything, they don't mind.

Well, just because your two pet atheists don't say anything doesn't mean a) they don't mind, and b) that there aren't many many other atheists out there that do.

And if you don't believe me, PM me and I'll give you the address of that atheists forum and you can go there and see better sampling of atheists.

   Jeff

 

MyJhongFist · Jun 27, 2002

Originally posted by Not Prince Hamlet

"You know, I just don't understand why those blacks wanted to sit in the main part of the movie theater, or in the front of the bus. They had themselves a very nice section all to themselves. They weren't being discriminated against."

Like I said, you don't have a clue about what it's like to be an atheist in this country, or to the level of persecution that goes on. 

 

I am not talking about blacks.  I am talking about atheists.

Have you ever been sent to the back of the bus, because someone found out you were an atheist?

Have you ever been asked to drink from a separate water fountain, because someone found out you were an atheist?

Been asked to leave a restaurant, or eat in the kitchen of the restaurant so that the other customers didn't have to look at you?

Give me some examples of what you go through.  Heck I might just jump on your bandwagon and we could get a legal fund together. 

Pledge Unconstitutional

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