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The Liturgist

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One thing I really wish would stop is the practice of putting monetary offerings right on the altar table, and also the incorrect use of the word “Offertory” to refer to the practice. In the context of liturgics, Offertory refers to the procession in which the unconsecrated bread and wine is brought from the Credence Table to the Holy Table or Altar Table for consecration as the Body and Blood of our Lord during the Anaphora, or Eucharistic Prayer. Because of the extreme holiness of this sacrament, which is regarded as a sacrament or ordinance by nearly all Christians, it really bothers me to see collection plates filled with money, the love of which Scripture teaches us is the root of all evil (1 Timothy 6:10), on the same table on which the Eucharist is consecrated.
 

chevyontheriver

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One thing I really wish would stop is the practice of putting monetary offerings right on the altar table, and also the incorrect use of the word “Offertory” to refer to the practice. In the context of liturgics, Offertory refers to the procession in which the unconsecrated bread and wine is brought from the Credence Table to the Holy Table or Altar Table for consecration as the Body and Blood of our Lord during the Anaphora, or Eucharistic Prayer. Because of the extreme holiness of this sacrament, which is regarded as a sacrament or ordinance by nearly all Christians, it really bothers me to see collection plates filled with money, the love of which Scripture teaches us is the root of all evil (1 Timothy 6:10), on the same table on which the Eucharist is consecrated.
It's the 'love' of money which is the root of all evil. But it makes me wonder if the love of money must be engaged in a place that does this. I agree that it should not be up there with the offering of bread and wine.

The gifts of bread and wine are real, but also symbolic of our giving ourselves to the Lord. Some of our first fruits do not seem out of place to be brought up but to put them on the altar offends my Catholic sensibilities. Maybe on the floor, maybe back behind something, or put in some side room but never on the altar. Please.
 
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BobRyan

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One thing I really wish would stop is the practice of putting monetary offerings right on the altar table, and also the incorrect use of the word “Offertory” to refer to the practice. In the context of liturgics, Offertory refers to the procession in which the unconsecrated bread and wine is brought from the Credence Table to the Holy Table or Altar Table for consecration as the Body and Blood of our Lord during the Anaphora, or Eucharistic Prayer. Because of the extreme holiness of this sacrament, which is regarded as a sacrament or ordinance by nearly all Christians, it really bothers me to see collection plates filled with money, the love of which Scripture teaches us is the root of all evil (1 Timothy 6:10), on the same table on which the Eucharist is consecrated.

Our custom is to have the plates on that same table each week - but we only celebrate the Lord's Table once a quarter and when that is done - the plates are not on the table for that Sabbath.
 
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Pavel Mosko

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You know this really reminds me of all the little things I love about the Coptic church. Like those offering boxes they got at the front of the sanctuary and how they never take up an offering during service, and really don't talk about money at all except for the fact it comes up during voter meanings when they got to talk about church finances and how offerings are down and the church is having problems paying for all the building programs and other stuff that the people previously voted on and agreed they wanted.
 
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The Liturgist

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Pacific Island Churches are well known to parade offerings as a matter of family pride.
I was once contracted to research the remittance of monies back to the Islands.

I have seen this in African churches, but the collection box stayed where it was, and was not placed on the altar (this was at a Presbyterian church).
 
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The Liturgist

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Does that mean it would be better to make reference to a 'table' rather than an 'altar' ?

Well strictly speaking, the altar was historically defined as the area around the Holy Table, or the grave of a martyr (recall, the oldest churches in Europe and the Middle East are often Martyries, which were built atop cemetaries that comtained the remains of Christian martyrs, and the Eucharist was celebrated on the graves of the Holy Martyrs; this informs the shape of Western altars as well as Syriac and Armenian altars, whereas Byzantine, Coptic and Ethiopian altars are square tables with a reliquary in the center). After the Diocletian persecution, it was decided by the early church that every altar should have the relics of martyrs, which was later extended to relics in general.

This is not the case, unfortunately, with most Protestant altars, which I regard as unfortunate as it denies us the connection with many of our holy martyrs like St. Dietrich Bonhoeffer, and various other victims of fascism and communism and those who died in the mission field. Rather than placing their remains in cemeteries, it would be greatly preferable I think to place them in the altars of our churches.
 
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The Liturgist

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It's the 'love' of money which is the root of all evil.

Note that I actually said that, just FYI. I wrote “the love of which Scripture teaches us is the root of all evil”
 
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The Liturgist

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The gifts of bread and wine are real, but also symbolic of our giving ourselves to the Lord. Some of our first fruits do not seem out of place to be brought up but to put them on the altar offends my Catholic sensibilities.

There are some first fruits which in some liturgical rites are traditionally placed on the altar to be blessed, in a liturgical context, specifically, on candlemass, but these blessings tend to amount to consecrations. In the Byzantine Rite deacons and priests are ordained - consecrated, with their forehead on the Holy Table. The baptistry is of course also a place for consecration, but specifically, of people being born into Christ. I feel that both altars and baptismal fonts should be treated with extreme reverence because of the consecration of the Eucharist on the former and of the recipients of the Eucharist in the latter.
 
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The Liturgist

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Our custom is to have the plates on that same table each week - but we only celebrate the Lord's Table once a quarter and when that is done - the plates are not on the table for that Sabbath.

My point is that a consecrated altar, like a consecrated baptismal font, should only be used for the function for which it was consecrated.
 
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The Liturgist

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I am intrigued to know if readers have studied Prof Harold Turner's book "From Temple to Meeting House"

I have not, but I myself like the Orthodox Christian church in which the individual chapels, parishes and cathedrals are considered to be temples. This is not to deny our bodies are also temples of the Holy Spirit; it is both/and rather than either/or.
 
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chevyontheriver

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Note that I actually said that, just FYI. I wrote “the love of which Scripture teaches us is the root of all evil”
I need to learn to read more carefully.
 
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The Liturgist

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I need to learn to read more carefully.

Nah, don’t worry about it; I am notorious for using complex syntax and an obscure and archaic vocabulary. By the way, I love your posts and the contributions you make to the forums.
 
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Hazelelponi

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One thing I really wish would stop is the practice of putting monetary offerings right on the altar table, and also the incorrect use of the word “Offertory” to refer to the practice. In the context of liturgics, Offertory refers to the procession in which the unconsecrated bread and wine is brought from the Credence Table to the Holy Table or Altar Table for consecration as the Body and Blood of our Lord during the Anaphora, or Eucharistic Prayer. Because of the extreme holiness of this sacrament, which is regarded as a sacrament or ordinance by nearly all Christians, it really bothers me to see collection plates filled with money, the love of which Scripture teaches us is the root of all evil (1 Timothy 6:10), on the same table on which the Eucharist is consecrated.

They don't do that at my church. They keep the offering plates at the back.
 
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Aussie Pete

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One thing I really wish would stop is the practice of putting monetary offerings right on the altar table, and also the incorrect use of the word “Offertory” to refer to the practice. In the context of liturgics, Offertory refers to the procession in which the unconsecrated bread and wine is brought from the Credence Table to the Holy Table or Altar Table for consecration as the Body and Blood of our Lord during the Anaphora, or Eucharistic Prayer. Because of the extreme holiness of this sacrament, which is regarded as a sacrament or ordinance by nearly all Christians, it really bothers me to see collection plates filled with money, the love of which Scripture teaches us is the root of all evil (1 Timothy 6:10), on the same table on which the Eucharist is consecrated.
Non orthodox people see things differently. Where I went this morning, (Baptist, not that it matters) the offering was devoted to the work of the kingdom of God. Money itself is a non-issue. It is the love of money that is the root of all evil.
 
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The Liturgist

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Non orthodox people see things differently.

Apparently not, since in this thread we have two examples of low church Protestants who do not put the collection plates on the altar.

Also, you do realize I am a Congregationalist minister? I list myself as a generic Orthodox Christian because of my commitment to the faith of the early Church, the Nicene Creed, the sacred liturgy, and the doctrines of the Ecumenical Councils. In this respect I am following in the high church, evangelical Catholic footsteps of the King’s Weigh House in London, which was, prior to the population shift away from the Square Mile of the City of London in the wake of the Blitz*, the largest Congregational church in Great Britain.

Where I went this morning, (Baptist, not that it matters) the offering was devoted to the work of the kingdom of God. Money itself is a non-issue. It is the love of money that is the root of all evil.

That still doesn’t mean we should put it on the altar. Seriously, the altar is for Holy Communion, just as the Font is for Baptism. There are plenty of other places in even the smallest churches where the minister

*The City of London, which is roughly speaking the square mile around St. Paul’s Cathedral, and the oldest part of greater London, historically the walled Roman city of Londinium, is now nearly all commercial, with a mere 9,500 or so residents, compared to over 250,000 in the adjacent City of Westminster. The City, as it is called, has an unusual government largely independent from the Greater London Council, and is the only place I know of where businesses are enfranchised (receiving a number of votes proportionate to how many workers they employ in the City). The City also has its own police force separate from the Met (the Metropolitan Police, also known as Scotland Yard), identifiable by a different crest on the traditional British police helmet, bronze buttons instead of the usual silver, a red and white checkered pattern vs the black and white of the Met, or the blue and white of the British Transport Police. who patrol the many railway stations in greater London, and whose uniforms look much more like those of the Met.

The City is also home to a collection of several of the world’s most beautiful churches. In addition to St. Paul’s, it features various exquisite gothic and neo-classical churches, many by Christopher Wren, including St. Stephen Walbrook, St. Botolph’s, St. Magnus the Martyr, St. Sepulcher, St. Mary Le Bow, and the Temple Church, among many others; due to the population shift, many of these churches are underutilized and survive by providing short weekday services for office workers and hosting tourists and concerts. The churches in the Square Mile of the City of London represent, in my opinion, the finest collection of Anglican churches in the world, and they are on a par with the collections of churches in Rome, Munich, Sienna, Moscow, Kiev, Old Cairo, Mount Athos, and certain smaller islands in Sweden and Denmark, where there are some stunning medieval churches with beautiful frescoes.
 
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ozso

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You know this really reminds me of all the little things I love about the Coptic church. Like those offering boxes they got at the front of the sanctuary and how they never take up an offering during service, and really don't talk about money at all except for the fact it comes up during voter meanings when they got to talk about church finances and how offerings are down and the church is having problems paying for all the building programs and other stuff that the people previously voted on and agreed they wanted.

That's the set up in the church I attend.
 
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