Please read

1 John 4:20 - If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?

Romans 1:29 - Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

2 Corinthians 12:20 - For I fear, lest, when I come, I shall not find you such as I would, and that I shall be found unto you such as ye would not: lest there be debates, envyings, wraths, strifes, backbitings, whisperings, swellings, tumults:

1 John 3:11 - For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.

1 John 4:7 - Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

1 John 4:11 - Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.

TrustAndObey said:

1 John 4:20 - If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?

Romans 1:29 - Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

2 Corinthians 12:20 - For I fear, lest, when I come, I shall not find you such as I would, and that I shall be found unto you such as ye would not: lest there be debates, envyings, wraths, strifes, backbitings, whisperings, swellings, tumults:

1 John 3:11 - For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.

1 John 4:7 - Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

1 John 4:11 - Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.

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:o

Psalms 19:14 - Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer.

1 Peter 1:15 - But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;

Hello to you all. Personal attacks on us are inevitable. totally agree with your thread. There is no reason for anyone to be embarassed we did nothing wrong. Jesus said the prostitutes and tax-man will be first in the kingdom if we just believe. He also said to obey the LAW and RULES. I do follow set guidelines in my life. So what makes this any different . I love you all GOD bless.

I agree that personal attacks are inevitable. The big test is how we deal with them individually.

Jon, I'm asking you as a friend to please edit your post in the Fundamental thread and take the cuss word out of it. My 11-year-old sometimes visits this site and I think we should always maintain a Christian tongue.

Note to self: Never let your son visit the Adventist section of this site again.

If thats the worst thing your son ever sees or hears then> of course i will remove it my dear. Your 11 year old will look at these posts and be like Boooooooooring LOL

Thank you Jon! I know it's hard not to get frustrated, but we cannot stoop, ever.

Well Lainie--as I said in thread "13th"--I really do think it's time to shut this site down. Satan has brought his minions in here to cause trouble. They have achieved that just fine. We asked them so many times and in so many ways to please stop their bashing of the SDA church---but they only came on all the stronger. And their numbers have been increasing daily. What could have and should have been a wonderful site for getting out the truths that only the Adventist church has--THEY have ruined. I am very ANGRY with them -- they refused to put their petty racism and apostacy aside. This is truly heart-breaking for me. I think I may not come back here if this site is not shut down. It's only going to get worse. As you know, we had all PROMISED that WE would not engage the troublers--but most of us did--and this is the sad result.

Honor, I know that it is very, very frustrating. However, this is exactly what happens when people enter the SDA Reform churches. They lose sight of who the true enemy is, and start focusing on their brothers and sisters in Christ. It is our duty to not only pray for them, but also to love them.

Sometimes the easiest means of loving your enemy is to walk away. On a message board there is only one way to do that.

You do not have to leave the people here that care about you and enjoy your fellowship. You would be missed and it's unnecessary.

Sister White wrote that it would appear as if our church was going to fail, and the instigators would come from inside our churches.

You know the truth, you know what they're saying is wrong. Please stay strong and pray with me that God would never be ashamed of anything we say in this forum.

Dear Heavenly Father, I come to you Lord as a broken sinner that doesn't deserve love or mercy. I come to you only by the extreme sacrifice my Savior made on my behalf. Please forgive my transgressions Father and make me the type of person You want me to be, not the kind that I am. I've reacted in a way that I'm not proud of Father, and if I've disappointed myself, then I know I've disappointed You.

I pray for my brothers and sisters. I pray for the many that are lost and scared and don't know You or Your love. I pray for those of us that do, but lose sight of the importance of our actions and our words. When we speak, please instill Your words in our mouths and our hearts. Let Your love shine through in every word we say, so that others may see You when they see us.

Please put Your protective wings around those in need after the hurricane Father, and please send enough messengers to spread Your message throughout those that are suffering and in need.

And Lord, please let us never get so wrapped up in our own problems that we forget the problems of others. Problems maybe we've never experienced ourselves. Give us empathy to those that are hurting over an issue that may have never touched us personally, but has affected our brothers and sisters.

Praise to You and You only Father. Thank you for sending Your Holy Spirit to teach us; from our mistakes, and from our triumphs.

In Your Son's most holy and precious name I pray.

honorthesabbath said:

Well Lainie--as I said in thread "13th"--I really do think it's time to shut this site down. Satan has brought his minions in here to cause trouble. They have achieved that just fine. We asked them so many times and in so many ways to please stop their bashing of the SDA church---but they only came on all the stronger. And their numbers have been increasing daily. What could have and should have been a wonderful site for getting out the truths that only the Adventist church has--THEY have ruined. I am very ANGRY with them -- they refused to put their petty racism and apostacy aside. This is truly heart-breaking for me. I think I may not come back here if this site is not shut down. It's only going to get worse. As you know, we had all PROMISED that WE would not engage the troublers--but most of us did--and this is the sad result.

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It is really a sad day for all. For you, to feel this way, and for the others you accuse of being Satan's minions, who really and truly are just saddened by the way things are going and want to effect a change for the better in some aspects.
Not sure if I am counted as a minion of that foe of my soul. I won't even entertain the thought that I could be thus accused.
If they shut this forum down because you asked for it to be, what would that say? I ask on one hand because I am not sure if the SDA section came about simply because a few, including yourself, requested it, or if the Administration saw that there was a need to create this place for all Adventists. One the other hand, asking to shut the place down because "others" have come in (not of your persuation, I presume, since you mention "THEY" and "WE") has made this less than the sanctuary you wanted to see it.
I see it as growing pains. When people with somewhat divergent views meet in a public forum and give opinions, feelings can be hurt, but growth can also wonderfully occur.

honorthesabbath said:

Well Lainie--as I said in thread "13th"--I really do think it's time to shut this site down. Satan has brought his minions in here to cause trouble. They have achieved that just fine. We asked them so many times and in so many ways to please stop their bashing of the SDA church---but they only came on all the stronger. And their numbers have been increasing daily. What could have and should have been a wonderful site for getting out the truths that only the Adventist church has--THEY have ruined. I am very ANGRY with them -- they refused to put their petty racism and apostacy aside. This is truly heart-breaking for me. I think I may not come back here if this site is not shut down. It's only going to get worse. As you know, we had all PROMISED that WE would not engage the troublers--but most of us did--and this is the sad result.

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We DID ask them, Honor's right. We asked them in many different ways to stop "flaming" and to stop bashing our church, and they did only come on stronger.

As, probably the youngest Adventist here (of those that know me, anyway) I have to say that I simply don't understand. I love my church. I truly, truly do. Not just the one I attend either, but all Adventists. It breaks my heart when people come in here and "bash it", or even just say that the church they attend doesn't treat them well.

I said in another post, that Jesus must have picked my church up, and is holding it up off of the ground, probably in the palm of his hand, because my church is NOTHING like what has been being described here.

No one forces people to be vegetarian in my church. No one tells us what time we should go to bed, or anything else for that matter. We truly do love one another and we work together for the good of our young people, as well as the good of our community. I am so proud to be a member of this church, that I admit, I let my anger get the best of me when others defame it.

Maybe, if I hadn't grown so used to the personal attacks on my church, coming from out of nowhere, I would have heard pain in StormyOne's posts (if that is what it was all about), but I didn't. I knew that somewhere along the line he (at least FELT) had been mistreated...but he sure was taking the long way around in telling that. I wish I had heard it, and I wish I had been able to truly help. Unfortunately, when you come into a room swinging, people usually do get defensive, immediately.

I am ashamed of my attitude and my behavior, and I'm with Honor in her request that it be shut down. It doesn't matter where we go or what we do, we are going to be attacked...and until I learn to handle it more maturely, I don't need to be in the middle of it.

I apologize to those I may have insulted, but mostly I apologize to my "family" for letting them down, and to Jesus for not remembering His admonition that we "love one another".

HoneyDew said:

It is really a sad day for all. For you, to feel this way, and for the others you accuse of being Satan's minions, who really and truly are just saddened by the way things are going and want to effect a change for the better in some aspects.
Not sure if I am counted as a minion of that foe of my soul. I won't even entertain the thought that I could be thus accused.
If they shut this forum down because you asked for it to be, what would that say? I ask on one hand because I am not sure if the SDA section came about simply because a few, including yourself, requested it, or if the Administration saw that there was a need to create this place for all Adventists. One the other hand, asking to shut the place down because "others" have come in (not of your persuation, I presume, since you mention "THEY" and "WE") has made this less than the sanctuary you wanted to see it.
I see it as growing pains. When people with somewhat divergent views meet in a public forum and give opinions, feelings can be hurt, but growth can also wonderfully occur.

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Dew--do u think it's appropriate for those few men who have hugh chips on their shoulders to vent it in this PUBLIC forum?? If they have problems with the church at large--what good do they think it's going to do yelling about it in here?? For heavens sake--how STUPID is that?? GO TO THE GC WITH YOUR BEEF--NOT A CHAT ROOM!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No Dew--their one and ONLY purpose is to create havoc and embarrassment to the SDA demonination!!!! These are they that EGW PREDICTED would come and try to make this end-time movement fall. She told us that the "former brethren" would be our WORST accussors. And how very right she was. The proof of that is right here before us--in this very forum!

You know, my up-bringing was such, that if a family had a problem between themselves--it stayed "in the family"!! We didn't broadcast our differences to the neigborhood!! I wish some ppl would realize this!!

Shutting down our section of the forum won't make people's opinions of us change.

Adventists get hit from every side. There are those on the outside of it that think we're a cult and there are those within it that see our GC as corrupt. Jumping ship only causes some to drown, but it's an individual decision.

If someone within our denomination or any other denomination is hurting, we have a true duty to invite them into fellowship with open arms. And Sassy, I'm right there with you. If Stormy is/was hurting then I missed it too. I am not very good at reading between the lines, and I never have been. All I saw was someone that seemed to despise the church that I love dearly.

The church I attend is filled with some of the most wonderful people on this planet and I cannot relate at all to the concept that some Adventists don't have that type of family. I'd love to pack them up and move them here (and I sure would if I could).

I'm hearing all this about racism and it is completely foreign to what I've seen here within the congregation I belong to. There are interracial marriages and people of just about every different race represented in our church. And the love there, oh...it's nothing short of heavenly. I don't know of anyone in my church family that wouldn't give someone in need the shirt off their back.

However, if it's something they're experiencing then I pray that it ends. It's wrong, not to mention illegal.

We need to pray, and pray with everything we have. Like David, we should fall on our faces and be ashamed.

If I can't love my brother then I can't love God. That's very clear in God's Word.

I have such a burden on my heart right now.

I do agree with Honor that if it doesn't get better I will also leave this forum. It's all I can do, because I know the range of emotions I've felt today is not healthy and not of God.

Give us strength Lord.

I'm not sure about this "racism" that was being spoken of. StormyOne said if we googled the Ohio Conference and then the Allegheny West Conference we would see it for ourselves.

Seeing as I live in Ohio, I couldn't resist doing just that. I will say, that from the little bit of time I spent on the Allegheny West site, it did appear African American oriented. I saw nothing, however, that said that that wasn't how they wanted it. There was a forum address listed, www.blacksda.com so I went just to check it out. If these folks are feeling "put out" or "set aside" or "discriminated against", I sure couldn't tell it from the posts I read. I intend on spending more time there in the next few days to learn what I can.

I meant what I said about racism...I can't and won't abide it. If there is a "hate" that I have in this world...THAT would be IT.

I'm going to have to do an awful lot of digging to determine how this came about...more than one conference covering Ohio, but all I can say right now, is that what I have seen of the Allegheny West Conference up to this very minute, doesn't give me the impression at all that this is not the way they want it. It's an upbeat site, not an "oh my, we are so oppressed" kind of thing at all. I admit I am stymied.

I intend to continue my study on this....

I live in a very small, close knit community. I have a church family that is "out of this world". I have a pastor that is so wonderful. I see no discrimination or racism in my church. We just had a dedication for the Taylor twins on Sabbath. They are the children of one of our African American families. Our church family was ecstatic at this wonderful celebration, and there were tears and hugs everywhere. The grandparents came in from Indiana, and we had the most wonderful time. The color of a person's skin was on no one's mind, I can tell you that. What a wonderful day, when you see two little ones dedicated in the church, and you take that vow to help raise them up in the truth. It's hard for me to see past my own little church on the hill...I'm so happy here, so loved, and I just have a difficult time realizing that not everyone's church is as special as Lainie's and my church is. As she said, I wish I could bring everyone here for a month. Just to give you a taste of how wonderful it is. And then you would know why I love it so.

I'm going to pray harder that everyone can have the same warm, welcoming, and loving church that I have....

Our Gracious Heavenly Father,

I come to you tonight on bended knee, ashamed of the words I have used today. Ashamed that I did not glorify your name when I had the chance.

Father I pray that each and every Adventist, and every other church going christian out there can have and experience the kind of church and church family that you led me to. The kind where your presence is felt so deeply that it's palpable. The kind of church were you are glorified each and every minute, where skin color isn't seen let alone noticed, and we are all one family in your name.

Dearest Father I ask that your words come from my fingertips on this keyboard and not my own. I ask for patience and understanding when I read the posts of others, and that I always respond in the way you would want me to.

Help me remember that it is wonderful to love your church...but it's even more so to love one another.

Forgive me, Father, for my vanity and my pride. My pride is so often my stumbling block, so often the one thing about myself that always causes me shame.

I pray for StormyOne, that whatever pain they are feeling from whatever bad experiences they may have had within our church, leaves them...that in your comfort, those "wrongs" will no longer be remembered.

Lord, we were told that this would happen. That in the end times, our church would appear to be falling/failing, and the worst of our enemies would come from inside of her, or from those who have left her. Help us know how to deal with this in the way you want us to. Give me the patience, the kind of deep, never ending patience that you have Lord...but most of all...give me the right words.

Father I, too, ask for your wings to surround the survivors of hurricane Katrina. May they feel your love, your warmth, comfort, and the deep sense of peace that only your nearness can create.

I thank you for the many blessings in my life, for my grandchild who grows stronger in the womb each day, for two loving children who heard your call and obeyed, for my son's announcement at church Saturday that he is going to join the church, how GOOD you are to me, Lord. I am not worthy, I am totally undeserving of your love and mercy yet you give it to me abundantly...

For everyone on this forum I ask for your blessings and your love to surround them, and give them peace.

In Jesus name I pray, Amen.

Very nice prayer Sassy, thank you!

I just came back from the arcade section. Never again. I'm down to 25 blessings and don't have a thing to show for it except a callous on my finger. Ughhhh.

This thread is interesting. I have read it, feel the passion of the comments, and I am not sure if the references to the devil and his minions refers to me or not, since I am not sure, I won't take that personal. Neither will I take personal the comment about people with chips on their shoulders....

I have attempted in various ways to convey that I am as adventist as everyone here, and it is because I am that I feel I can discuss "our" issues. People who are not adventist would have no clue. However, it appears that talking about those things has been interpreted as bashing the church... that is not my intent... I have shared what I have seen and experienced. Believe me when I say there are two churches, one white and one black and sometimes they are not on the same page.

Sassy stick around BSDA long enough and you will get a different view of adventism, folks there are not afraid to discuss anything, there is nothing off limits, but it is also a place that you may learn somethings that you didn't know...

If I have offended any, I apologize, I came to interact and discuss adventism, all of it, good, bad, or ugly....

I guess we can start again or you all can put me on ignore permanently..... Like I said before, love covers a multitude of faults.....

Unlike many churches, the Adventist church has a very defined mission and message - as such, so do it's members. It is my personal opinion that that should be our collective focus; spreading the 3 Angels message is what our task is. That is where the greater good is to be found.

Bickering about inter- and intra-church issues takes away from that message. Personal agendas take away from that message.

As mentioned in earlier posts, this is a public forum. This is a great opportunity to get that message across to hundreds of people - I ask people to think if their agenda is more important than spreading the 3 Angels message, and if it is, you probably need to reevalute your decision to be an Adventist.

Remember, God's will, not our will, be done.

TrustAndObey said:

However, if it's something they're experiencing then I pray that it ends. It's wrong, not to mention illegal.

We need to pray, and pray with everything we have. Like David, we should fall on our faces and be ashamed.

If I can't love my brother then I can't love God. That's very clear in God's Word.

I have such a burden on my heart right now.

I do agree with Honor that if it doesn't get better I will also leave this forum. It's all I can do, because I know the range of emotions I've felt today is not healthy and not of God.

Give us strength Lord.

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Racism is not illegal. I wish I could help you with your range of emotions. I have been called "the other person," "accuser of the brethren," "apostate," and others, but "none of these things move me." You keep your blood pressure at a sanctified level and pray that those who are presently misguided will come to see the error their ways.

SassySDA said:

Maybe, if I hadn't grown so used to the personal attacks on my church, coming from out of nowhere, I would have heard pain in StormyOne's posts (if that is what it was all about), but I didn't. I knew that somewhere along the line he (at least FELT) had been mistreated...but he sure was taking the long way around in telling that. I wish I had heard it, and I wish I had been able to truly help. Unfortunately, when you come into a room swinging, people usually do get defensive, immediately.

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I think we should start by debunking the idea that Stormy came in here swiniging. You were correct in that you project to everyone who questions what you hold dear whatever it is that you experienced with others who are intent on attacking the church. That is understandable but you have to learn how to control it. As an avid studenf of the history of this church I can assure you that it has weathered many a storm. At the same time you should not pretend that all is well. We should learn the lessons of history. If the Roman Catholic church had heeded Luther's complaints there would have been no fracture in the church.

I guess Stormy speaks here because he is not certain he will be heard by the leadership.

Discrimination absolutely is illegal.

Statrei, are you SDA Reform or Historic SDA? Some of your comments lead me to believe that you are one or the other, which is cool, but I need to ask you a question if that's the case (about the historic SDA view of the trinity).

Stormy is a likable guy. He needs to come right out and say what's on his mind though without expecting everybody to figure it out from very few "clues."