• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Please Provide Historical Proof That Peter Was The First Pope.

ProAmerican

Veteran
Jun 1, 2005
1,250
58
55
✟1,696.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Republican
I would appreciate it if someone would provide proof, that has been determined, by what could be called a third party, to be proof that the Apostle Peter was, indeed, the first Pope of Rome.

1.) This historical proof must have been determined by a "third party" to have been written before, say, A.D. 125.

IOW, verification as to the authenticity of this document must not come from within the RCC.


2.) Peter in this document must be referred to as the "Pope," and it must be said that his place of authority was in Rome.


BTW, there are multiple historical proofs that show that Jesus Christ actually lived, which were written by Romans(and others) before A.D. 125.
 
  • Like
Reactions: BBAS 64
ProAm - are you attempting to show that Peter was not the first bishop of Rome or are you arguing against primacy?

I don't think that there is any argument at all that Peter was the first bishop of Rome - just as James was the first Bishop of Jerusalem. These are historical facts. The term "Pope" likely was not used but that is irrelevant. You can call him the guy in the big hat if you like - it does not matter - it is simply a title for the Bishop of Rome.

Maybe you could clarify your position a bit to foster a better discussion?
 
Upvote 0

ProAmerican

Veteran
Jun 1, 2005
1,250
58
55
✟1,696.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Republican
eoe said:
I don't think that there is any argument at all that Peter was the first bishop of Rome - just as James was the first Bishop of Jerusalem.

Maybe no argument within the RCC, but what proof are you basing the argument on that Peter was the first bishop of Rome? Please provide this proof within the parameters provided in the OP.

eoe said:
These are historical facts.

Then I am sure that you should have no trouble at all then providing that historical proof(parameters provided) that Peter was the first Bishop/Pope of Rome.

eoe said:
The term "Pope" likely was not used but that is irrelevant.

So in other words there is no historical proof that Peter was called the "Pope."

eoe said:
You can call him the guy in the big hat if you like - it does not matter - it is simply a title for the Bishop of Rome.

If Peter wasn't called Pope then in which century was the Bishop of Rome called the Pope?
 
Upvote 0

ProAmerican

Veteran
Jun 1, 2005
1,250
58
55
✟1,696.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Republican
Metanoia02 said:
And how would proof or lack of proof change your life?

That's not at issue here. At issue here is for you to provide the proof that I(and no doubt others) seek, as stated in the OP.

If you don't have this historical proof then just say so, instead of turning the argument upon me, and changing the direction of this thread.
 
Upvote 0

ProAmerican

Veteran
Jun 1, 2005
1,250
58
55
✟1,696.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Republican
Unfortunately I have to go for now, and probably for the rest of the day.

I will be back tomorrow, though, to see if someone, anyone, can provide the proof(as outlined within the OP) that I, and no doubt others, seek.

:wave: :D

Surely something as important as this to the RCC would have historical proof to support it(as outlined within the OP.)

Surely.
 
Upvote 0

Metanoia02

Owner of the invisible &a mp;
Jun 26, 2003
3,545
290
Visit site
✟27,703.00
Faith
Catholic
ProAmerican said:
That's not at issue here. At issue here is for you to provide the proof that I(and no doubt others) seek, as stated in the OP.

If you don't have this historical proof then just say so, instead of turning the argument upon me, and changing the direction of this thread.

I didn't realize I was being argumentative. May you find what you seek.
 
Upvote 0

revduane

Well-Known Member
Nov 3, 2005
2,030
133
✟2,866.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
ProAmerican said:
I would appreciate it if someone would provide proof, that has been determined, by what could be called a third party, to be proof that the Apostle Peter was, indeed, the first Pope of Rome.

1.) This historical proof must have been determined by a "third party" to have been written before, say, A.D. 125.

IOW, verification as to the authenticity of this document must not come from within the RCC.


2.) Peter in this document must be referred to as the "Pope," and it must be said that his place of authority was in Rome.


BTW, there are multiple historical proofs that show that Jesus Christ actually lived, which were written by Romans(and others) before A.D. 125.

Hey P.A.

Here is a website you might find interesting.

http://www.biblestudylessons.com/cgi-bin/gospel_way/peter_as_pope.php
 
Upvote 0

chilehed

Veteran
Jul 31, 2003
4,732
1,399
64
Michigan
✟250,124.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
ProAmerican,

Is it that you don’t think he was in Rome at all? There’s lots of evidence that he was:

“Since, however, it would be very tedious, in such a volume as this, to reckon up the successions of all the Churches, we do put to confusion all those who, in whatever manner, whether by an evil self-pleasing, by vainglory, or by blindness and perverse opinion, assemble in unauthorized meetings; by indicating that tradition derived from the apostles, of the very great, the very ancient, and universally known Church founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul;...”
Irenaeus, 2nd Bishop of Lyons, Againt Heresies (inter AD 180/199)
“That both Peter and Paul suffered martyrdom at the same time is affirmed as follows, by Dionysius, Bishop of Corinth, when writing to the Romands: You have also, by your very admonition, brought together the planting that was made by Peter and Paul at Rome and at Corinth; for both of them alike planted in our Corinth and taught us; and both alike, teaching similarly in Italy, suffered martyrdom at the same time.”
St. Dionysius, Bishop of Corinth, Letter to Soter of Rome (fragment in Eusebius, History of the Church, Bk. 2, Ch. 25) (A.D. 166/174)
“It is recorded that Paul was beheaded in Rome itself, and Peter likewise, was crucified, during the reighn of Nero. The account is confirmed by the names of Peter and Paul over the cemetaries there, which remain to the present time.And it is confirmed also by a stalwart man of the Church, Gaius by name, who lived in the time of Zephyrinus, Bishop of Rome. This gaius, in a written disputation with Proculus, the leader of the sect of Cataphyrygians, says this of the places in which the remains of the aforementioned Apostles were deposited: “ I can point out the trophies of the Apostles. For if you are willing to go to the Vatican or to the Ostian Way, you will find the trophies of those who founded this Church.”
Caius, Presbyter of Rome, Disputation with Proclus (fragment in Eusebius, History of the Church, Bk. 2, Ch. 25) (A.D. 198/217)
“How happy is that church . . . where Peter endured a passion like that of the Lord, where Paul was crowned in a death like John’s.”
Tertullian, The Demurrer Against the Heretics (A.D. 200)

Perhaps you may defer to the words of Peter himself:
The Apostle Peter said:
“The Church here in Babylon, united with you by God’s election, sends you her greeting, and so does my son, Mark”
1 Pet. 5:13

I imagine that you’ll object that these documents are of late origin, that they are of Catholic origin, and that they don’t use the word “Pope”. I find all of these objections to be quite unreasonable.

There’s no evidenciary reason to say that documents written after 125 AD are to be automatically discounted, and to artifically apply that as a cut-off date violates the rules of historical evidence.

Only a Christian would have really been interested in recording the whereabouts of Peter (other than to kill him), and since the Catholic church was the only act in town then by definition all of the documents would be of Catholic origin. One exception would be any Roman civil documentation of his arrest and execution, but since the Romans wouldn’t have regarded him as particularly worthy of note they wouldn’t have gone to any lengths to copy or preserve such records (if they existed at all).

And to top it all off, the site that Gaius referred to in the quote above has indeed been found in the catacombs of Rome. You can visit it today if you like, and see the tomb of St. Peter with your own eyes. You may want to get a book entitled "The Bones of St. Peter", by John Evangelist Walsh.

If you’re hung up about the word “Pope”, then as eoe has said you’re making much out of nothing. The authority of Peter and his successors has nothing to do with what he is affectionately called; it has everything to do with the office to which Jesus promoted him.

“Pope” is an English rendering of the word “papa”, and English didn’t exist at the time. You’re essentially asking us to produce documents written in a language that would falsify their authenticity.

“Papa” means “father”, and priests and bishops have been called “father” since the beginning of Christianity. The date of the first use of the word as a title for the Sucessor to St. Peter is quite irrelevant to the question of Papal authority. And if you're hung up about the use of the word "father", see how the Apostles characterized themselves as "fathers":
"Therefore I sent to you Timothy, my beloved and faithful child in the Lord, to remind you of my ways in Christ" (1 Cor. 4:17)
"To Timothy, my true child in the faith: grace, mercy, and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord" (1 Tim. 1:2)
"To Timothy, my beloved child: Grace, mercy, and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord" (2 Tim. 1:2).
"This charge I commit to you, Timothy, my son, in accordance with the prophetic utterances which pointed to you, that inspired by them you may wage the good warfare" (1 Tim 1:18)
"You then, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus" (2 Tim. 2:1)
But Timothy’s worth you know, how as a son with a father he has served with me in the gospel" (Phil. 2:22).
"To Titus, my true child in a common faith: grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior" (Titus 1:4)
"I appeal to you for my child, Onesimus, whose father I have become in my imprisonment" (Philem. 10)

You may be intersted in this thread:
http://www.christianforums.com/t2381861-why-i-believe-in-the-magesterium-of-the-catholic-church.html
 
Upvote 0

Veritas

1 Lord, 1 Faith, 1 Baptism
Aug 7, 2003
17,038
2,806
Pacific NW USA
Visit site
✟124,662.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Libertarian
revduane said:
Hey P.A.

Here is a website you might find interesting.

http://www.biblestudylessons.com/cgi-bin/gospel_way/peter_as_pope.php

I have to laugh at this link. Newsflash! The pope is a sinner like everyone else including you and me. He even goes to confession regularly! Pointing out his sins proves nothing. Why don't you list yours? Then we can say "revduane" is a sinner of the worst kind and is disqualified from leading anyone to Christ. Gosh, even St.Paul admitted to being a sinner:eek: and look how well he did the Lord's work. Amazing!
 
Upvote 0

revduane

Well-Known Member
Nov 3, 2005
2,030
133
✟2,866.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
Veritas said:
I have to laugh at this link. Newsflash! The pope is a sinner like everyone else including you and me. He even goes to confession regularly! Pointing out his sins proves nothing. Why don't you list yours? Then we can say "revduane" is a sinner of the worst kind and is disqualified from leading anyone to Christ. Gosh, even St.Paul admitted to being a sinner:eek: and look how well he did the Lord's work. Amazing!

Well veritas.

I see that your responses are not much different than what you described as attacks on the catholic church. I am a sinner. I just know that Peter wasn't the first Pope.
 
Upvote 0

Amb1

Active Member
Jan 1, 2006
187
12
80
✟377.00
Faith
Protestant
ProAmerican said:
I would appreciate it if someone would provide proof, that has been determined, by what could be called a third party, to be proof that the Apostle Peter was, indeed, the first Pope of Rome.

1.) This historical proof must have been determined by a "third party" to have been written before, say, A.D. 125.

IOW, verification as to the authenticity of this document must not come from within the RCC.


2.) Peter in this document must be referred to as the "Pope," and it must be said that his place of authority was in Rome.


BTW, there are multiple historical proofs that show that Jesus Christ actually lived, which were written by Romans(and others) before A.D. 125.

He wasn't! m i s s i n t e r p r e t a t i o n
 
Upvote 0

BBAS 64

Contributor
Site Supporter
Aug 21, 2003
10,049
1,801
60
New England
✟615,844.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
HeartFullaLove said:
Actually, there is really no evidence Peter was EVER in Rome.

Good Day, Heart Fulla Love

I have done a bit of research in this area, facts of the matter there are "lots" of historically evidence of Peter being in Rome, not the least of that is where he died.

Peace to u,

Bill
 
Upvote 0

+RubiesFire+

Senior Veteran
Nov 1, 2005
2,676
96
✟25,886.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Some can say that Pete was not the first Pope, others say he is the First Pope, and I say that I have no Comment because I don't know the answer. :sorry:
So I am going to write this what I found in the Bible maybe this can help:

Now all of you together are Christ's body, and each of you is a separate and necessary part of it. Here is a list of some of the members that God has placed in the body of Christ:

First are the Apostles,
Second are Prophets,
Third are Teachers,
then those who do miracles,
those who have a gift of healing,
those who can help others, those who can get others to work together,
those who speak in unknown language.

Is everyone an Apostle? Of course not. Is everyone a Prophet? No. Are all Teachers? Does everyone have the power to do miracles? Does everyone have the gift of healing? Of course not. Does God give all of us the ability to speak in uknown languages? Can everyone interpret unknown languages? No! And in any event, you should desire the most helpful gifts.

1 Corinthians 12:27

This saying reminded me about Peter, some may believe that he was the first Pope others may disagree that he was a Pope. It's like are some of us Teachers? Yes. Are others teachers? No. Well if Peter was the first Pope then yes, if not then no. And that's where I go blank......

^_^^_^^_^


 
  • Like
Reactions: lionroar0
Upvote 0