Please help me understand this argument

[Tatsukun]

Hi all,

So I was browsing another thread here and it has made me wonder something. I don’t want to derail that thread, so here it is.

I have seen theists bring out a certain line of reasoning time and time again in an effort to prove the existence of their chosen god(s) and every time it makes me hang my head at the silliness.

That argument is “the act of me praying affects the world in measurable ways”. This is most often in the “I prayed for X to happen and it did so my god(s) is/are real”. So, my open question to theists is this; do you really, I mean really, think you have magic powers?

I have been on these boards a while, and 99% of the theists I meet are rational, reasonable people. I just can’t get my head around how many of them then turn around and claim to have magic powers.

Please, help a fellow out. What am I missing?

[FONT=&quot] -Tatsukun[/FONT]

 

[humblemuslim]

Praying for something to happen and having GOD do it is not magic.

It it magic for a creator to interact with one's creation?

I suppose depending on the level of complexity of the creator and their involvement it could appear to be magical to those of simple minds. But that does not make it "magic".

 

[Tatsukun]

Well, ok. I get that. But isn't most all magic supposedly coming form external sources? You always hear people calling on "the spirits" or "my ancestors" or "the gods" or "the universe" or whatever.

When I am saying "magic" I mean this...

1)

You say some magic words

and / or

You do some sort of incantation

Thus

2) Something in the world changes


That's magic. No?

-Tatsukun

 

[durangodawood]

Well, ok. I get that. But isn't most all magic supposedly coming form external sources? You always hear people calling on "the spirits" or "my ancestors" or "the gods" or "the universe" or whatever.

When I am saying "magic" I mean this...

1)

You say some magic words

and / or

You do some sort of incantation

Thus

2) Something in the world changes


That's magic. No?

-Tatsukun

Thats not prayer, which if done correctly is an entreaty from your heart, from the deepest and highest part of yourself. Magic is often just for self-aggrandizement, basically.
.

 

[humblemuslim]

I agree with durangodawood that what you are describing is not prayer, at the very least not from my perspective.

The first issue I find with your definition of magic is the recursive nature of the your definition. Notice that your first point identifies something as magic if "magic words" are used.

Secondly, prayer as practiced by myself is not about reciting some special assortment of words. It is a conversation. A dialogue with the creator. It is also a form of meditation that helps mitigate stress.

In a prayer I might ask GOD to help me, but that hardly makes my dialogue with GOD magical if I receive aid.

The only way such a outcome would be viewed as magical is from the perspective that GOD does not exist. Things happening from a dialogue with a fictitious being would certainly be magical if they consistently occurred.

 

[Isambard]

Magic - Anything or power outside of the natural world causing an effect on the natural world. Yes, an answered prayer would fall under the cateogory of magic.

 

[Tatsukun]

Yeah, I think I should be clearer in what I mean by "magic words". I include the famous ones "Abracadabra" and such, but how are those different than "Our father who art in heaven..." or "Heavenly father..." or "Allahu Akbar..."

It seems like most people around here would consider a wiccan casting a spell by lighting a candle, calling on the spirits and expecting to change the world to be"casting a spell". What's the difference between that and lighting a candle, calling on your god(s) and expecting the world to change.

I think it's also important to point out here that there are clearly two types of prayer. Bushmaster best described one type, which I will call "hoping out loud" in which one talks to a god and doesn't expect anything to happen. The speaker know nothing will happen, but it's therapeutic to talk ones' problems out. That's NOT the kind I am talking about here. I am talking about the "I prayed for a puppy and the next day one showed up" sort of prayer.

I still don't get how claiming to be able to pray for things and get them is different than claiming to have magic powers (or maybe superpowers to put a more modem label on it).

-Tatsukun




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[b&wpac4]

I have only ever heard Jews pray for the health of others, or comfort, or those kinds of things. Forgiveness of sin, naturally, and praise. Not sure I've ever heard the "I wish for a new car" type.

 

[Under Grace]

Praying for something to happen and having GOD do it is not magic.

Hypothetically speaking?


The use of magic words avail nothing. I have seen where a believer in the occult is mislead and something contrary to his/her desire occurs. Demons never work to some human's advantage but only to deceive, kill or destroy.

Prayer on the other hand... thru faith in the lamb sacrificed, Jesus Christ, leads to the believer's needs being met completely without having to ask because G*d knows everyone's needs. (Here prayer is simply humbling oneself and recognizing Him).

 

[BobW188]

I pray. God decides.

Sometimes my way, sometimes not.

No magic involved.

 

[Tatsukun]

Yeah Bob, I hear what you're saying.

But everyone who is using magic adds that disclaimer. You hear "the spirits are not willing" or "the ancestors are not happy" all the time. I guess I just don't see the difference between "This has a better chance of happening because I asked my god" and "This has a better chance of happening because I killed a chicken and said magic words".

Maybe I'm slow...

 

[Tatsukun]

I have only ever heard Jews pray for the health of others, or comfort, or those kinds of things. Forgiveness of sin, naturally, and praise. Not sure I've ever heard the "I wish for a new car" type.

Right, so that's the category 1 of prayer. That's the one I understand and think is good for the world. I am really confused about the other kind.

-Tatsukun

 

[Tatsukun]

Hypothetically speaking?


The use of magic words avail nothing. I have seen where a believer in the occult is mislead and something contrary to his/her desire occurs. Demons never work to some human's advantage but only to deceive, kill or destroy.

Prayer on the other hand... thru faith in the lamb sacrificed, Jesus Christ, leads to the believer's needs being met completely without having to ask because G*d knows everyone's needs. (Here prayer is simply humbling oneself and recognizing Him).

Thanks for contributing, but I'm not sure I follow you here. Are you saying that it's not magic if you get what you want? Or, are you saying it's not magic if you call on Jesus for the power as opposed to other gods / beings?

-Tatsukun

 

[Robban]

Yeah Bob, I hear what you're saying.

But everyone who is using magic adds that disclaimer. You hear "the spirits are not willing" or "the ancestors are not happy" all the time. I guess I just don't see the difference between "This has a better chance of happening because I asked my god" and "This has a better chance of happening because I killed a chicken and said magic words".

Maybe I'm slow...

Hi, you will always find people who
take things wrongly. Just of intrest for what it,s worth. In the NT, Acts 8:18, there you find someone who was just in it for what he could make.
In the Book of Exodus you will find Faroah,s magicians.
The true meaning of Prayer, is to get get connected, stay connected. Sin is, To be cut off, in the worst case. For me prayer is not a thought but spoken words. Words that leave ones mouth, and not just stay in the mind. One could call it magic, the fact that one wakes up and realizes the fact that one is alive, how did this happen, Was it because of any effort on my part. Just acknowledging there is One who has caused this to happen, and giving thanks for a new day. Makes all the difference.
But it,s all about making a connection.

 

[dingdong]

Prayer is nothing more than talking to yourself, people who believe in a God have been able to convince themselves that there is a God, and the only way to do that is to make up a God of their own, their religion gives them a template as to what their God should be like but after that their God is up to them.

Prayer is for making the believer feel better about themselves.

I say this for one very good reason, what happens to the God when a believer stops believing in the God?
to stop believing the believer must get rid of the God in their head, when the God is gone the believer has changed themselves into a disbeliever and the God disappears back into thin air.

Of course if you are a believer all the above is garbage because you don't think your God is just in your mind,
but should you ever decide to question your belief your God will start packing, just in case you change your mind.

 

[Robban]

Hi Dingdong,
You could put it that way, that would be one way of looking at things.
And why not? No one can twist your arm and force you or anyone to pray.
There are no beginners nor proff prayers. But, just over a coffee-break, it,s surprising what people reveal about themselves. For me it,s a case of plugging in. It made me laugh though once, when a big, hard construction boss, said over a cup of coffee. "Ya know what, I was trying to find a parking space for over an halvhour, in the end I said dear God I need somewhere to park this thing, and would you beleive it.........." This was from someone who would deny any religion. So you never know.
I wil say one thing though, it was a pleasure knowing him.

 

[nicknack28]

I don't know much about magic but have read that how it is used at least in many pagan traditions that it isn't some cause and effect words equals desires mechanism. Magic is (keep in mind my disclaimer of ignorance) using your will to influence the natural world, but usually such must be permitted by higher authorities like personal gods or the gods of various pantheons in order to be effective, and to appeal to those authorities a person uses ritual. So the will of the divine is still a major factor in whether actual change occurs except here the human agent has a larger role.

I think for many it might be as simple as: prayer is what the right religion does and magic is what the wrong religions do. They're both invoking a power outside the natural world (though some pagan traditions might disagree that it is in fact supernatural). If anything were truly to come of either one (meaning results) then I wouldn't make much of a distinction.

I guess that didn't really answer anything.

 

[Robban]

I don't know much about magic but have read that how it is used at least in many pagan traditions that it isn't some cause and effect words equals desires mechanism. Magic is (keep in mind my disclaimer of ignorance) using your will to influence the natural world, but usually such must be permitted by higher authorities like personal gods or the gods of various pantheons in order to be effective, and to appeal to those authorities a person uses ritual. So the will of the divine is still a major factor in whether actual change occurs except here the human agent has a larger role.

I think for many it might be as simple as: prayer is what the right religion does and magic is what the wrong religions do. They're both invoking a power outside the natural world (though some pagan traditions might disagree that it is in fact supernatural). If anything were truly to come of either one (meaning results) then I wouldn't make much of a distinction.

I guess that didn't really answer anything.

Thought that was a good post Nick, Imo.

 

[HumbleSiPilot77]

If I knew magic, I would leave this God that I believe out of the loop, then who would need him anyway, I would do my own magic and get rich/wealthy/healthy and everything I could imagine... I would say some gibberish and drive to work with a different sports car everyday. I could probably fly like Superman. Unfortunately, I don't know this Abracadabra guy and therefore can't perform any magic.

 

[Tatsukun]

Yeah Nick, I pretty much agree with what you've said there.

To add on to that a bit. It seems to me that the argument that a specific god must be real because someone prayed and got the thing they want doesn't really hold much water. Unless, you are willing to argue from a polytheistic standpoint, where there are thousands of gods.

-Tatsukun