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Please explain to me oneness pentecostal view on the trinity and modalism?

Albion

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Chances are, you're referring to the United Pentecostal Church International, which differs from most other Pentecostal churches by being Modalistic in its view of God. That is to say, it believes that the distinction between the persons of the Trinity is only that one God appeared to us differently and at different times, assuming different roles.
 
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Albion

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That I can't say with any assurance. It is the primary difference and about the only one that people talk about. I might add that I think there's a certain cultic mindset among members, if you consider that to be a separate issue. That is to say, the church, unlike most Pentecostal churches but like most cults, campaigns on the idea that their view of the Trinity is the only acceptable one so that everyone else is a heretic, etc. etc. But as for other doctrinal peculiarities, I couldn't say.
 
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sonofedward

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I find it interesting that the gifts of the spirit work in exactly the same way in oneness pentecostalism as in mainstream pentecostalism (their theology is the same on this subject).

Just a thought, would this mean that God is not concerned with theology when it comes to his unity and how it all works? or are these gifts within all of pentecostalism not really from God but from men hence they are manifesting in both camps (oneness/trinitarian) the exact same way? something that I am pondering about.

Thank you for your answers

God bless
 
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Tigger45

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I visited a couple of local oneness congregations just to get a first hand experience of them. I knew I'd have problems with their oneness doctrine but wanted to hear it spoken straight from the horses mouth.

All in all besides 'oneness' they are typical Pentecostals in other teachings and practices. Although that doctrine does isolate them from the rest of Christiandom. And IMHO most signs of the gifts of the HS are manufactured therefore dismissing any affirmation from God.
 
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Erose

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The oneness doctrine is that God is one person, not three. And when God is filling the roll of Creator He is the Father, when He is filling the roll of Redeemer He is the Son, and when He is the Sanctifier He is the Holy Spirit.

Basically one God, one person, three jobs or modes of operation.
 
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Erose

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Concerning the charismatic gifts, in all reality they are not based upon whether or not you are a heretic. They are gifts freely given, and are not tied to your sanctification. We here in the Gospels of others casting out Devils in Jesus' Name who were not part of His direct followers.
 
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Dave-W

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The UPC is the largest of all the "oneness" denominations and is very pentecostal. My sister married a guy whose family had converted over to UPC from the Assembly of God when my sister and i (and her eventual husband) were in jr high school.

As far as the use of the gifts, they seem to be similar to old line Assembly of God and independent pentecostal practices. (heavy use of tongues, not much else) In fact, I believe they do not think anyone is "saved" until they speak in tongues.

They believe baptism (water) to be essential to salvation - and it has to be according to their formula "In the Name of Jesus." ( and NOT in the name of Father Son and Holy Spirit) If you are baptized in the trinitarian formula, they may or may not allow you to be re-baptized according to their formula.

They also are very much into the old line Wesleyan holiness movement outward acts; Women can never cut their hair, never wear makeup, must wear dresses/skirts at ankle length. Men must wear long pants, long sleeve shirts and wear NO facial hair. No one can wear jewelry including wedding bands. Wristwatches are suspect.

My advice is find somewhere else to go. They are a closed group and do not play well with others.
 
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seashale76

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Greeting I am new to the forum and i've come across a oneness pentecostal church near me and wanted to know more about their theological views on the trinity. I've been told they are modalists but don't really know what that means.

God bless
It means they're not Christian. Rejecting the Holy Trinity is a deal-breaker belief.

ETA: FYI: As the Nicene Creed is the determining factor for what constitutes Christianity around here, any group that rejects the things in it, can safely be crossed off the Christian list. This thread topic should not even be here, because this board is to discuss Christian groups, and Oneness Pentecostals are not Christian.
 
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Erose

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I think that one needs to be careful here in claiming who is and is not Christian, since that word has become pretty fluid. There are a lot on Pentecostals who are God fearing and Jesus loving as anyone else. And besides the Trinity doctrine, there are quite a few doctrines they follow that are very orthodox, compared to many Trinitarian's faith traditions.

For example their justification doctrine is much more orthodox than most Protestants


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
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ViaCrucis

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Greeting I am new to the forum and i've come across a oneness pentecostal church near me and wanted to know more about their theological views on the trinity. I've been told they are modalists but don't really know what that means.

God bless

For a bit of explanation.

Modalism is shorthand for "Modalistic Monarchianism", that's a mouthful I know. In antiquity it was usually just called Sabellianism, after one of its chief proponents, Sabellius. If we break down that mouthful of a term it can be helpful:

Monarchianism, looking at it can be helpful because it contains the word monarch, which means "one ruler"--in the way we talk of a monarchy as the rule of a single individual--a king or queen. It refers to God being the "monarch" in question, it is called "modalistic" because it says the one God expresses Himself through different modes or roles. The way they described this was that God wore different masks or "faces", in Greek this is prosopon (plural: prosopa). They said God was a single actor who wore three faces, the way that ancient theater actors wore different masks to play different roles or parts.

So, they said, God in heaven is the Father, but wears the face or mask of "the Son" on earth as Jesus, etc. Thus, for them, Jesus was, effectively, just a physical manifestation of God's presence on earth.

There's a lot of reasons why that is a problem, but here are some of the most significant problems with saying this:

1) In the Gospels the Lord Jesus actually prays to the Father. Jesus speaks of the Father as distinct from Himself, "The Father sent Me", "The Father is greater than I", "Not My will but Your will be done" etc. Jesus can't simply just be a physical manifestation of God's presence, Jesus is most definitely a distinct person who actually relates to the Father. Jesus speaks of returning to share in the glory which He had with the Father before, so the distinction between Father and Son can't simply be that Jesus is on earth and the Father is in heaven, but an actual distinction that has always existed between Father and Son. Which kind of gets us to point 2

2) The prologue of John's Gospel states the following, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God." The Logos (translated as "Word") is said to be both with God and is God. For John God and His Logos are distinct, but not separate, the fact is that the Logos is Himself God with God. It is the Logos, as we read in verse 14 of John ch 1 that "became flesh and dwelt among us", Jesus Christ is the Logos, He who was both with God in the beginning, and is Himself God. Jesus, from all eternity, is God with God. Yet there cannot be two gods, that would violate all we know from Scripture which states with abundant clarity that there is only one God. That's why Jesus' statements in John's Gospel such as "I and My Father are one" are important, it reveals to us the unity between the Father and the Son, that even though the Son/Word of God is distinct from the Father, He is nevertheless God, one with the Father.

Modalism denies the distinction between Father and Son, it denies the fact that Jesus, though God, is not the Father but is one with the Father, united to the Father, is God of and with the Father.

It's this that was crucial, in addition to the controversy which Arius introduced about a hundred years after Sabellius, that led to the way the Council of Nicea sought to explain the orthodox Christian position:

(This is from the originally symbol of 325)
"We believe ... in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, begotten of the Father, the only-begotten; that is, of the essence of the Father, God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one being with the Father;"

In the Creed that Christians have been using for hundreds of years (the symbol of 381) it reads a bit more concisely:

"We believe ... in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father. God of God, Light of Light, true God of true God. Begotten, not made, of one being with the Father"

The Son is not God in a human suit, but is Himself truly God from all eternity, begotten of the Father not in time but eternity, and of the Father's own essence, nature, or being. He, God the Son or Logos, united Himself to our own human nature in the Incarnation, becoming man. Jesus is therefore not God in a human suit, but actual God and actual man. He is both eternally God and actually human, just like we are human.

The heresy of Modalism/Sabellianism isn't just wrong at an academically theological level, but undermines the faith which we confess in the Son of God.

Oneness Pentecostalism, with the UPC being the largest Oneness Pentecostal denomination in the world, will insist they don't teach Modalism/Sabellianism. They are partially correct, in that it's not identical to ancient Modalism, but their differences with ancient Modalism are only further problematic and heretical. Oneness Pentecostal dogma asserts that "Jesus" is the divine name of God the Father (this is why they are sometimes called "Jesus' Name Only" or "Jesus Only"), that the Father's name is "Jesus" and that the Father manifested Himself as a man on earth, and this God-as-a-man is "the Son", whereas the Holy Spirit is simply the spiritual essence of the Father which we experience in us. They go even further than the Modalists of old, and go down heretical paths different but no less heretical and wrong.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ViaCrucis

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I think that one needs to be careful here in claiming who is and is not Christian, since that word has become pretty fluid. There are a lot on Pentecostals who are God fearing and Jesus loving as anyone else. And besides the Trinity doctrine, there are quite a few doctrines they follow that are very orthodox, compared to many Trinitarian's faith traditions.

For example their justification doctrine is much more orthodox than most Protestants


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

According to the UPC and other Oneness groups to be "saved" one needs to be baptized in "Jesus' name only" (Trinitarian baptisms are evil and apostate in their view), then to receive "baptism with the Holy Spirit with evidence of speaking in tongues", without glossolalia you aren't saved, you can only be saved if you have received the Holy Spirit with glossolalia. And finally, if one has received Jesus' name baptism and tongues, salvation is entirely dependent on living a life of rigorous obedience; which is also why many of these groups adhere to harsh moralistic and rigorist practices--dictating what kinds of clothes their members can wear, hair lengths for men and women, forbidding wearing jewelry, and generally moralizing and rigorously dictating "holiness standards" to the congregants. And in violation of these standards one's salvation is at jeopardy.

That's heterodox and wrong by any traditional Christian's perspective, whether Catholic, Orthodox, Lutheran, Calvinist, etc.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Teslafied

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You have to be careful because the Oneness Pentecostals are deceived and unfortunately the majority of them are more than likely not saved.

Some flaws in their beliefs...
They deny the trinity.
They believe they are the only true church and all others are damned to hell.
They believe one must be baptized in Jesus name ONLY and that the believer must speak in tongues to be saved.
They believe in modalism which means one God with 3 modes of manifestation.

Here's the icky clencher for me they belief that when Jesus prayed to the Father, the spirit left the man part of him so it was just the man praying to God. Creepy... They also believe that Gods spirit left the man part of Jesu on the cross so essentially they believe a man died in our placed. AND they believe that Jesus was created right out of Gods mind and in the end Jesus will no longer be needed He will return to Gods mind.

It's all too weird and confusing to me, I've been to an apostolic oneness church and to be quite honest those are just a few reasons I deemed it a cult. When I went I noticed higher ups would follow me to see what I was doing and saying it was too creepy.
 
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Dave-W

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Ray - an ordained A/G pastor for years ran an independent bible book store (non denom) in the next town over from my home town. He would fill in for vacationing pastors or when a congregation in the area was in transition. He always had a bevy of amusing stories from his store.

One day he had a UPC guy come in who had discovered that Our Lord's name was actually Yeshua back in the day, and that "Jesus" was a poor transliteration taken thru several different languages. This concerned him greatly as their belief was that being baptized in the proper name was salvic, and using the wrong name spelled doom. He was afraid that his entire denomination was sentenced to hell (with no remedy) since they had used the wrong name .....
 
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Citizen of the Kingdom

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It seems to be presumptuous ignorance to assume that one who believes the Lord is One is not a Christian. I don't belong to a Oneness church but admit I was baptised at one many years ago never having gone to that church as I lived in the bush of outback Canada and MERELY studied the bible for truth. And I have to admit that the experience was weird having worn mascara that day and died more from embarrasment that it ran down my face after the baptism (jkg)
But what is everyone objecting to I just don't get!!! Is water in the form of steam or ice not the same as water OR is a 3 leaf clover not actually one and the same plant????

1 Corinthians 15:45
So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.​
As the Spirit He is the life supply. Recieving (believing) Him [JESUS] as the crucified and resurrected savior, the lifegiving Spirit comes into us to impart eternal life. We recieve (believe) the Lord Jesus but we get the Holy Spirit who gives us life.
Hebrews 1:3b
... After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.​
Wherefore He has now become the Spirit in vs 63 of John 6 who gives life and speaks in spirit and life.
2 Corinthians 3:17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.​
 
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Albion

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It seems to be presumptuous ignorance to assume that one who believes the Lord is One is not a Christian. I don't belong to a Oneness church but admit I was baptised at one many years ago never having gone to that church as I lived in the bush of outback Canada and MERELY studied the bible for truth. And I have to admit that the experience was weird having worn mascara that day and died more from embarrasment that it ran down my face after the baptism (jkg)
But what is everyone objecting to I just don't get!!! Is water in the form of steam or ice not the same as water OR is a 3 leaf clover not actually one and the same plant????
Maybe this will illustrate the issue and explain why the skeptics are skeptical--

Would you say the same if we asked instead if oil is not the same as water (after all, both are liquid or fluid) or if a 3 leaf clover is not actually one and the same as a blade of grass or a petunia (since all are plants)?
 
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Citizen of the Kingdom

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Maybe this will illustrate the issue and explain why the skeptics are skeptical--

Would you say the same if we asked instead if oil is not the same as water (after all, both are liquid or fluid) or if a 3 leaf clover is not actually one and the same as a blade of grass or a petunia (since all are plants)?
Hey I'm not an expert on oneness, nor do I know how the Son prayed to the Father. I merely go by what scripture says and trust that I will never fully know God unless He is revealed to me by the Son.
 
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Albion

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Hey I'm not an expert on oneness, nor do I know how the Son prayed to the Father. I merely go by what scripture says and trust that I will never fully know God unless He is revealed to me by the Son.
I appreciate that, but as for the questions I posed...? The reply, I think, explains why those who are reluctant to say "Christian" to every church that consider itself to be Christian think as they do. If that's bothering you.
 
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Citizen of the Kingdom

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I appreciate that, but as for the questions I posed...? The reply, I think, explains why those who are reluctant to say "Christian" to every church that consider itself to be Christian think as they do. If that's bothering you.
Well. to ignor your biblically unrelated question (Ps, why am I not surprised that's all your questioning?) and to pose one of my own on my reply to it... how does the Son reveal the Father to us except thru the Holy Spirit?

I honestly don't understand any reasoning to your further reply ... ?
 
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