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Please Can Someone Help Very Confused??

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PaulSCH

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How many "Sons" does God have?



  1. [*]Jacob
  1. is God's son and firstborn: "Israel is my son, even my firstborn" Exodus 4:22.

  1. [*]Solomon
    is God's son "He shall build a house for my name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom for ever. I will be his father, and he shall be my son": 2 Samuel 7:13-14.

  1. [*]Ephraim
    is God's firstborn: "for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn." Jeremiah 31:9 (who is God's firstborn? Israel or Ephraim?).

  1. [*]Adam
    is the son of God "Adam, which was the son of God." Luke 3:38.

  1. [*]Common people
    (you and me) are the sons of God: "Ye are the children of the LORD your God" Deuteronomy 14:1. "For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God" Romans 8:14. "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:" John 1:12. "That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;" Philippians 2:15. "Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: ... now are we the sons of God" 1 John 3:1-2. "When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?" Job 38:7. "Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD," Job 2:1. "Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD," Job 1:6. "When the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men," Genesis 6:4. "That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they [were] fair" Genesis 6:2.
Psalms 2:7
"I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me (King David, King), Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee."

Because God was his "Father"?

"That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven..." Matthew 5:45
"Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." Matthew 5:48.
"Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me." John 8:42.

Because he performed miracles?
Elisha is said to have raised the dead, resurrected himself, healed a leper, fed a hundred people with twenty barley loaves and a few ears of corn, and healed a blind man: (2 Kings 4:35, 13:21, 5:14, 4:44, and 6:11.)
Elijah is said to have raised the dead, and made a bowl of flour and a jar of oil inexhaustible for many days (1 Kings 17:22 and 14.)
Jesus (pbuh) had a beginning (the begetting) and an end ("and he gave up the ghost") Melchizedec, however, is said to have had no beginning of days nor end of life but was "made like unto the Son of God"


  1. [*]Matthew 28:18 "And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth."
    [*]Luke 11:20: "But if I with the finger of God cast out devils."
    [*]Matthew 12:28 "But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God."
    [*]John 5:30: "I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me."
    [*]John 10:25: "the works that I do in my Father's name."
    [*]John 8:28-29 "...I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things. And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him."
    [*]Acts 2:22 "Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know"


Because he was filled with the Holy Ghost?



  1. [*]Luke 1:67 "Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost."
    [*]Luke 1:41 "Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost."
    [*]Acts 4:8 "Then Peter, filled with the Holy Ghost said."
    [*]Acts 13:9 "Then Paul, filled with the Holy Ghost, set his eyes on him.."
    [*]Acts 2:4 "And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak."
Is Jesus a god because he was filled with the Holy Spirit from his mother's womb? If this is the case then John the Baptist should be a god also, as claimed in Luke 1:13-15.

Because he was the "Image of God"?
"....Christ, who is the image of God." .2 Corinthians 4:4
Surely this makes Jesus God. Well then, we should also read
"So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them." Genesis 1:27


Because he was "from above"?
In John 8:23 we read
"And he (Jesus) said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world."
Does this make Jesus (pbuh) a god ? Why not read
"I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world" John 17:14
and "They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world." John 17:16

Because he was the "Messiah/Christ" and the "Word"?

The word "Messiah" is the English version of the Hebrew word mashiyach {maw-shee'-akh}. The literal meaning of this word in the Hebrew language is "to anoint." In our present day, it is customary for those who are appointed to high office (ie. the President of the US, Supreme Court justices, etc.) to attend a solemn ritual wherein that person is consecrated into office. During this ritual, certain rights of passage or ascension must be performed, such as repeating a solemn oath and so forth. Once such rituals have been successfully completed, only then is that person considered to have officially received the rights and obligations of this office.
If we were to read the Bible we would find that every priest and king of ancient Israel was "anointed" by their people as a sign of official consecration to office.
When this word was translated into ancient Greek, the words used were "Messias" {mes-see'-as} and "Christos" {khris-tos'} (see John 1:41, 4:25). This is where we get the word "Christ" from, it was originally derived from the Greek word for "anoint." Jesus was indeed "christened," or "anointed," or "baptized," by John the Baptist before the beginning of his ministry as seen for example in Matthew 3:16 among many other verses.
This is not to say that just because the word "Messiah" was applied to others that it was not a specific designation for Jesus. It only goes to show that this title does not imply a position as "Son of God."
Solomon:
1 Kings 1:39 "And Zadok the priest took an horn of oil out of the tabernacle, and anointed Solomon. And they blew the trumpet; and all the people said, God save king Solomon."
David:
1 Samuel 16:13 "Then Samuel took the horn of oil, and anointed him in the midst of his brethren: and the Spirit of the LORD came upon David from that day forward. So Samuel rose up, and went to Ramah."
Jewish priests:
Leviticus 4:3 "If the priest that is anointed do sin according to the sin of the people; then let him bring for his sin, which he hath sinned, a young bullock without blemish unto the LORD for a sin offering."
Cyrus the pagan:
Isaiah 45:1 "Thus saith the LORD to his Messiah, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have holden, to subdue nations before him; and I will loose the loins of kings, to open before him the two leaved gates; and the gates shall not be shut;"
A pillar:
Genesis 31:13 "I [am] the God of Bethel, where thou anointedst the pillar, [and] where thou vowedst a vow unto me: now arise, get thee out from this land, and return unto the land of thy kindred."
The tabernacle:
Leviticus 8:10 "And Moses took the anointing oil, and anointed the tabernacle and all that [was] therein, and sanctified them."


Because he was called "Lord"?
Prophet Abraham:
"Therefore Sarah laughed within herself, saying, After I am waxed old shall I have pleasure, my lord (Abraham) being old also?" Genesis 18:12
Esau:
"And he commanded them, saying, Thus shall ye speak unto my lord Esau; Thy servant Jacob saith thus, I have sojourned with Laban, and stayed there until now:" Genesis 32:4
Joseph:
"And we said unto my lord, We have a father, an old man, and a child of his old age, a little one; and his brother is dead, and he alone is left of his mother, and his father loveth him." Genesis 44:20
David:
"And fell at his feet, and said, Upon me, my lord, [upon] me [let this] iniquity [be]: and let thine handmaid, I pray thee, speak in thine audience, and hear the words of thine handmaid." .1 Samuel 25:24

Because God "gave His only begotten Son.."?
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
John 3:16
The above is the King James "translation" of John 3:16. If we were to open up the Revised Standard Version of the Bible on this exact same verse we would find it now translated as
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only son, ...."
Where’s "begotten"?
The Greek term for "begotten" in ancient Greek is "gennao" {ghen-nah'-o} as found for example in Matthew 1:2. In the verses under consideration, however, the word used was not "gennao" but "monogenes" {mon-og-en-ace'}.
"Monogenes" is a Greek word which conveys the meaning "unique" and not "begotten." Thus, the true translation of this verse is "His unique son."

How did Jesus' people know him?
So if the followers of Jesus (pbuh) considered God to be their "Father," then how did they regard Jesus? To answer this let us read together:
"And when he would have put him to death, he feared the multitude, because they counted him as a prophet."Matthew 14:5 (compare with Matthew 21:26)
"And the multitude said, This is Jesus the prophet of Nazareth of Galilee." Matthew 21:11
"But when they sought to lay hands on him, they feared the multitude, because they took him for a prophet." Matthew 21:46
"And he said unto them, What things? And they said unto him, Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people:" Luke 24:19
"The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet." John 4:19
"Then those men, when they had seen the miracle that Jesus did, said, This is of a truth that prophet that should come into the world." John 6:14
"Many of the people therefore, when they heard this saying, said, Of a truth this is the Prophet." John 7:40
Indeed, how did Jesus himself describe himself? Let us read:
"Nevertheless I (Jesus) must walk to day, and to morrow, and the [day] following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem."Luke 13:33
And they were offended in him. But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country, and in his own house. Matthew 13:57.




Does God pray to Himself?
Now, does God pray? Let us read the Bible:

  1. [*]Mark 14:32 "and he (Jesus) saith to his disciples, Sit ye here, while I shall pray."
    [*]Luke 3:21: "Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened."
    [*]Luke 6:12: "And it came to pass in those days, that he went out into a mountain to pray, and continued all night in prayer to God."
    [*]Luke 22:44 "And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground."
    [*]Matthew 26:39: "And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt."
Think about it, when we are told that Jesus was in the garden earnestly begging and pleading with God to please, please save him saying "let this cup pass from me" and "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" etc., then:


Jesus is God's servant
Matthew 12:18: "Behold my servant, whom I have chosen."

  1. [*]Acts 3:13(RSV): "The God of Abraham, and of Isaac,.... hath glorified his servant Jesus."
    [*]Acts 4:27(RSV): "For of a truth against thy holy servant Jesus, whom thou hast anointed...."
The Actual Greek word used is "pias" or "paida" which mean; "servant, child, son, manservant." Some translations of the Bible, such as the popular King James Version, have translated this word as "Son" when it is attributed to Jesus (pbuh) and "servant" for most everyone else, while more recent translations of the Bible such as the Revised Standard Version (RSV) now honestly translate it as "servant."
The exact same word "pias" is attributed to Jacob(Israel) in Luke 1:54 and translated as "servant":
"He hath helped his servant Israel, in remembrance of his mercy;."
It is also applied to King David in Luke 1:69, and once again, it is translated as "servant":
"....the house of his servant David;" (also see Acts 4:25).
However, when it is applied to Jesus (e.g. Acts 3:13, Acts 4:27), NOW it is translated as "Son." (notice that it is not only translated as "son" but as "Son".) Why the double standard? Why the dishonest translation techniques?
 

BigNorsk

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I think you are a bit unfair to proclaim dishonesty when you haven't proven it.

For instance "pias" can mean either child or servant. One looks to the context and frankly sometimes the context doesn't make it clear which one or both is really the meaning.

Jesus is called "son" with other words, it is not a mistake to call him "son". The only arguement is in those verses which is in view his sonship or his servanthood.

Monogenes is kind of a special case. At the time of the KJV it was thought to mean only begotten. It was not a matter of dishonesty. More recent linguistic work has shown it to more properly be unique or one of a kind. Many modern translations have used "only" but I do not like that because it is open to misunderstanding. I really like one of a kind but unique would be very good as well. The ISV has used unique and been severely criticized by people who don't know better but simply don't like anything that disagrees with how they learned things.

It is important because the misunderstanding of monogenes seems to be exactly where groups such as the Jehovah witnesses get their Jesus is a created being doctrine. The creeds say Jesus was eternally begotten but correct the apparent reference to him being created with specifically saying he was not created. Groups such as the Jehovah's Witnesses don't follow the creeds and so are not protected from the error.

If you correct the monogenes then you see Jesus being begotten as concerning his birth and his resurrection. Not something that happened before time.

Now you must realize of course that once corrected the monogenes correction pretty well does away with your other objections? We might say we are sons of God, and so on, but Jesus is unique, He is one of a kind. And so we read scripture and while it can seem confusing to someone and you can't prove something just from the choice of words by the translators in these passages. It is still provable when you take all of scirpture.

Translation is difficult because there is seldom a perfect word for word translation that neither adds to nor takes away from and you have to know how people will understand the translation. So it can appear motivated when a translator is simply trying to get it so that people understand the primary meaning of the passage and not add things in or take things away. Practically it's impossible to perfectly translate. It might be possible to perfectly translate for one person but certainly not more than one because people will read the same and understand differently.

But it's really a stretch to think that most translators are being intentionally dishonest and deceptive.

Marv
 
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