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Physicalism can I think be easily refuted on the basis of this one analogy:

You have a mirror and objects facing it. The object in the mirror is identical to the object facing the mirror. If it weren't then if you moved the object facing away from the mirror the mirror-image would not move. Motion is the common denominator linking the two things: both the seen and the object so seen. This would be the case even if the mirror were tinged black, and we could not see how the object looked like in truth, and it was our belief it took on proportions which were other than how it existed in-itself. There are just some necessary conditions which apply and I think we can all agree on this minus some extreme skeptics.

Now, assuming this premise, that the thought is identical to the thing so thought about, there are some logical implications here which can't be dispensed with.

First, if on the physicalist side it's assumed that a thought is A (an electrical impulse or what have you) that is to stand for B (a state of affairs in the real world), then what makes A identical to B? What distinguishing characteristics make it so that if B has this quality, same quality must follow in A? In the mirror analogy this is clear enough - A moves along with B, thus we can safely assume on the basis of similarity that A refers to B because A is an identical placeholder for B. They are one and the same. Where on the physicalist side do you have the same necessary and sufficient conditions to establish this identity? Is it various patterns of synapses firing in a certain way? If so, how is it that we may correlate this pattern of firing with objective fact? The answer is we can't. We are stuck with only a given pattern we assume a priori has anything to do with our belief in an external reality.

If we don't have certain knowledge that what we think about has anything to do with concrete fact, than all claims about the external world are groundless, but this is not what the physicalist wants to accomplish, I hope. For of course there is an objective world and we do have access to it. That is a metaphysical assumption we all make. So what gives? How can we have knowledge about the external world? My answer: you would need a mental realm to mirror, and not just assume without justification, an outer realm.

Secondly, the way the physicalist attempts to account for identity can only be counter to his belief system. For since thoughts are just as physical as their referents, on his scheme, it follows that the only way a thought can be
conceptualized by the mind is in terms of its necessary and sufficient conditions, mirroring external fact. Since connections in the brain could not be adequate to furnish this analytical support, being of themselves only a type of patterning, bereft of the "meta" mirroring-condition which my analogy presents as a requirement for correlating our response to the outside world, he would in effect have to say that if a thought is "physical" the only meaningful exposition for this statement, is that a thought is of the same mode as the thing thought of which it is about. So, thinking of an elephant immediately conjures a literal elephant in my mind. Otherwise, there is no cross-over, seeing how a mental realm has been dispensed with.

So, physicalists, either you give up on knowledge about the external world or you accept the real possibility that when you think of an elephant, that elephant actually materializes in your own mind.
 

Paradoxum

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For some reason I find it difficult to follow your reasoning. I hope it will suffice to say what I think of the initial analogy.

An object in the mirror isn't identical to the object itself. For one it is 2D not 3D. It is just an image, a representation of the object. It is similar only in how it looks, but different in other aspects, such as touch.

I'm not sure what your understanding of physicalism is. To be honest I know little about it. I assume the point is that the brain is like a computer. The workings of a computer are nothing like a tree, but a tree can be created and shown on computer screen. A computer can contain information about the world, even though the workings of the computer seem nothing like the information contained within.

I'm not necessarily a physicalist, I'm just answering how I see it.
 
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ChristianT

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physicalism |ˈfizikəlˌizəm|
nounPhilosophy
the doctrine that the real world consists simply of the physical world.
That's what it sounds like to me. I don't buy that; however, it's undeniable that reality consists of the physical world.
 
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For some reason I find it difficult to follow your reasoning.

Oh, you wouldn't be the first. I certainly have to learn how to communicate my ideas more effectively. However, ambiguities still proliferate.

An object in the mirror isn't identical to the object itself. For one it is 2D not 3D. It is just an image, a representation of the object. It is similar only in how it looks, but different in other aspects, such as touch.

Look at it from your own first-person point of view. Is a door-knob in front of you identical to itself? Yes, right? Now that thought you harbor seeing the door-knob is not the knob as it exists itself. But at the same time your thought is not not about it, either. Your thought is about that specific thing and not something else, like a dog say, or even another identical-looking, door-knob.

Now, it's also a representation. Keep in mind though that everything you think is a representation. It is all referring to some concrete reality you yourself can't conceptualize (since it is outside the purview of the senses). What is left on your mind is merely the imprint of external truth. The mirror image. Tinged darkly as it were, per the expression.

My point is: if physicalism is true and a thought is no different from a collection of firing synapses, then on what basis do you postulate any external reality since those synapses are in no way reflective of any thing's identity (in the form of necessary and sufficient conditions). If you see a teddy bear you also see that he has eyes, a mouth and bow tie among other things. This moves you to infer that when you don't look at it, it still has these characteristics intact. In other words, your mind reflects these conditions in the form of mental life; not merely as patterns transcribed on your brain, but as an actual, concrete thought which, since it is identical with the absolute article, can rightfully be said to refer to it. Synapses on the other hand don't refer to anything, at least not in this way.

So if thoughts are reducible to this physical cause, and don't extend anywhere beyond (thus making mental life an unsubstantial mirage), who cares about necessary and sufficient conditions for anything, much less the existence of any possible external world?
 
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The Nihilist

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Knowledge of the external world is a problem addressed by the field of epistemology, and has been one of the questions that philosophy has been wrestling with for about 600 years now. Since Descartes, anyway. This issue is completely independent of the question of whether physicalism is true or not. There, you learned something today.


(Heidegger's answer was my favorite. It amounts to "shut up, no one cares.")
 
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LOL!

Perhaps this graphic will help you understand just what it is that I mean:



Just what exactly would happen were the mental life bar contracted into the neuro-physical? What possible relation would the absolute article have to us? Would it even be recognizable? Or would we not rather be solipsists, entirely aloof from external reality?
 
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The Nihilist

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Why do you think this is a problem for the neuro-physical, but not for the "mental realm?"
 
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Why do you think this is a problem for the neuro-physical, but not for the "mental realm?"

Because the mental realm is the perfect medium for catching these “waves” of reality that come to us, so to speak. It has the ability to create “stand-ins” the same way a wave on a shoreline might form an indentation, or something. Is the neuro-physical self-luminous, like a flashlight? Does it have the necessary reflexivity to mirror reality and not only imitate it?

The mental realm is like an opening in an otherwise sealed container, is I suppose the best example of what I mean. When I have a thought (preferably of something physical, in this case) it is as though I commune with it. There is a rapport that exists between the thought and the thing thought about. A one-to-one correspondence. If it was only a complicated physical cause, then I’m guessing it would have to redound back on itself, so that the thought and what is "beyond" the thought (which would have to be it itself), become enmeshed together in a type of illusion.... I don’t have any better expression useful for what I mean unfortunately. Only, of course, where would the “beyond” come into such a picture? Of course there wouldn’t be such a thing. That’s exactly the point. There would be no sufficient outlets in such a case, to know the external world… The mental is the only sure outlet... Unless, MAYBE, it came about indirectly. By a tortuous interpretative frame... That however would itself leave the world mostly unknowable, and simply an outcome of our biology, a trick of our physical selves.... No room for certainty there.
 
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quatona

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Physicalism can I think be easily refuted on the basis of this one analogy:

You have a mirror and objects facing it. The object in the mirror is identical to the object facing the mirror.
Sorry, you´ve lost me here already. I do not agree with this premise.


So, physicalists, either you give up on knowledge about the external world or you accept the real possibility that when you think of an elephant, that elephant actually materializes in your own mind.
It doesn´t materialize in my own mind - it becomes an elephant in my own mind.
 
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Paradoxum

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Oh, you wouldn't be the first. I certainly have to learn how to communicate my ideas more effectively. However, ambiguities still proliferate.

It seems that you skip out words of a sentence every so often that is needed to clarify what you are talking about.


Well I'll assume its identical for now.


I agree.


Well we know that humans have mental experiences, so if the mental experience of a door-knob is seen to connect to the firing of certain synapses then it would be fair to think them connected (after a number of testings). The synapses themselves are external to the mental experience, and so even knowing that synapses exist prove there is an external world.

Also, going back to computers, how do we know that real information about the world is contained inside computers?


I doubt physicalism denies that there are mental events. Of course there are. Isn't the point that these mental events are simply by-products of the working of the brain?


Well the point might be that the brain codes experience into brain language. A robot can react to the physical world even though it 'thinks' in terms of zeros and ones.
 
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KCfromNC

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Because the memory is reflective of the identity of the object we observed, as you admit in the first sentence I quoted. It's not a perfect recording of it, but that's not a requirement for physicalism since no one I know of claims that our memory is a perfect recreation of external reality.

I do. External reality is where I keep all my stuff, for one thing.
 
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sandwiches

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Even assuming your original idea were correct (which it isn't) about reflections being identical to the original object they reflect, that alone does not prove non-physicalism nor disprove physicalism. Sorry but this is a simple false analogy fallacy.
 
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Resha Caner

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Because it's made of stuff which interacts with other stuff in specific ways, which we call the laws of physics.

"Stuff" seems rather vague given that the interaction is "specific." Are the interactions better defined than the stuff?
 
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sandwiches

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"Stuff" seems rather vague given that the interaction is "specific." Are the interactions better defined than the stuff?

I was being (what I thought was) funny. =P

Well, we only know so much about both interactions and the stuff. Either way, the stuff interacts with other stuff in ways we can observe and (at least partly) predict. Molecules reflect light, unstable atoms emit radiation, electric fields make stuff "solid," etc... physics... the physical.
 
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Resha Caner

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So, would it bother you if someone defined, say, light as non-physical?
 
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Eudaimonist

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So, would it bother you if someone defined, say, light as non-physical?

It would certainly bother me if someone were to suggest that light had no physical properties. If something that has physical properties is "physical", then light is certainly physical.

As for the mind-body distinction, I take a dual-aspect approach that views brain processes as having both physical and mental properties, and this distinction is dependent on whether one extrospects (for instance to use one's eyes to look at a brain scan) or introspects (to focus one's awareness on one's mental contents).

I don't view mental processes as having some existence outside of brain processes, so one could say that I'm a physicalist. However, I'm not a reductionist, so I view mental processes or properties as very real and not as mere "illusion".


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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