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No, I wasn't condoning oral sex as that's still sex. Anal, too. I was just saying that I personally don't think kissing, hugging, cuddling, hand holding, etc, was wrong before marriage. People are physical and emotional creatures and for most that's what non-sexual affection appeals to. It's not wrong and it's perfectly normal. I could never be with someone who couldn't show me affection.
Fair enough. I do think I over-reacted fwiw, but I really think its important to be careful in this area, not awakening love before its time and not being quick to engage in non-sexual intimacy. Its just such a difficult sin to fight against if you're not aiming high.
I see where you're coming from and I agree. And there's no hard feelings, honestly. I just don't like it when I'm singled out and accused of something. It's hard for me to not come out like a fire-breathing dragon after that.Fair enough. I do think I over-reacted fwiw, but I really think its important to be careful in this area, not awakening love before its time and not being quick to engage in non-sexual intimacy. Its just such a difficult sin to fight against if you're not aiming high.
Do you think your own sexuality might be affecting your understanding of sexuality in general?
IDK, put my sexuality under the microscope? If I did, how would that change scripture?
Could yours also be coloring your view of sexuality in general?
I really don't wanna, but I will if you really think it would be enlightening.
I don't think it would change a bit.
At least as much as mine, I guess.
Or perhaps we just have very atypical beliefs. I personally see commitment before God to be the deciding factor, not if you have a piece of paper stamped/signed by a judge.You could call it that. Or you could call it rebuking false teachers, who say that sin is not sin.
Around here, I really wonder which side is the unpopular one...Or maybe its just cowardice. No-one likes to be unpopular... but its a coward that values their own sense of comfort above another person's soul.
No matter if its drinking, or porn, or gambling.
He was talking to a bunch of married men. Think of it this way. Adultery was a crime punished by death. Two unmarried (also not betrothed, but that doesn't happen today) having sex was NOT punished by death. Thus, two unmarried people having sex was not adultery. Thus unmarried person lusting after unmarried person is not adultery.Just picking up the end of the thread.
To be clear, in the above, you sound as though you were not promoting physical (if short of sexual) intimacy. To be clear, you were originally condoning physical intimacy so long as it wasn't sex (although, to be fair, I don't think you were trying to condone oral sex or any such thing). But, its also a bit disingenuous to act as though there is no sexual component to the physical intimacy which you were originally condoning.
Fine, though... I would think it would be obvious which scriptures are at issue (please feel free to provide counter-point scripture, if there are any):
Matthew 5:27-30
27 You have heard that it was said, You shall not commit adultery. 28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.
Commentary on above: Do you not see the extreme emphasis which Jesus places on keeping your mind pure? An extremely legalistic reading here would point out that canoodling is not explicitly mentioned, I suppose.
And if you look more in-depth into that verse, you will find it is even more shocking than this, because Paul was encouraging (for men who could not keep it to themselves) what would today be called child molestation.An interesting rendering from the NIV:
1 Corinthians 7:1-3
1 Now for the matters you wrote about: It is good for a man not to have sexual relations with a woman. 2 But since sexual immorality is occurring, each man should have sexual relations with his own wife, and each woman with her own husband. 3 The husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife, and likewise the wife to her husband.
Greek link for 1 Corinthians 7:1
And the NASB rendering of 1 Corinthians 7:1
1 Now concerning the things about which you wrote, it is good for a man not to touch a woman.
Link to Greek haptomai (rendered, "to touch" in above verse).
Commentary on verse - If you look at the concordance links under haptomai, you see that the word is not exclusively sexual. An 'altering touch' is what is spoken of, which I think fits with physical contact which falls short of sex.
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That's just two of the low-hanging instances. Any dissenting verses for your side?
Ah yes, I do believe Song of Songs says 3 times to not awaken love before its time. But when exactly is loves time to awake? I say that only the individual can decide that for themself.Do you think your own sexuality might be affecting your understanding of sexuality in general?
I think the subject should be treated to the degree that it effects you, like the drinking issue. I am one of those moderate drinkers who have no problem stopping at a couple of drinks. There are lots of people out there who cannot do this. Same thing with the kissing, cuddling, some people its not an issue at all, for others its like adding fuel to the fire, and next thing you know all the clothes are on the floor. The Bible says to deal with your sins harshly if need be, and uses the strong language of cutting out your eye if need be, meaning not literally do that, but maybe avoid the situation altogether if cuddling leads you into sexual sin, don't even put yourself into that situation to fall.
I have personally decided that I will not be kissing whoever my future husband is until our wedding day, but would I ever look at another Christian and tell them that kissing their boyfriend or girlfriend is a sin? No, absolutely not.
Do you read/ have you read the Ludy's books?I also agree with someone's father who said, "anything (physical) enjoyed before marriage will eventually lose its luster, while everything saved for marriage will just get better and better throughout the couple's life."
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