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Physical Divinity of Christ

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cajunhillbilly

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Ishraqiyun said:
Not contradictory at all when you understand what Man is. Man is divine.
Click to expand...


Really? Man is created in the image of God, but man is NOT God. To teach otherwise is to deny the Creator/creature distinction. "God is not a man that He should lie" etc. Sorry man is not divine. He is made in God's image but he is NOT NOT NOT God.
 
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Ishraqiyun

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To teach otherwise is to deny the Creator/creature distinction.
Click to expand...
I wasn't talking about the aspects of man that were created, the psyche and body. The Spirit comes from the Father and transcends this world and its god. It prexisted the formation of the psyche and body and was "breathed" into man. It wasn't created. The Spirit is our true self.
 
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Mark_Sam

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Do you believe that Mary, the mother of Jesus, is rightly called "'Theotokos" (birth-giver of God) and "Mater Dei" (Mother of God)?
 
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Croref

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How 'bout if can be understood that Jesus possessed no human nature? Consider what we call our human nature, which we are dead if we are born again, is but our rotten dispositions that needs be rectified by our submission to our gifted NEW Divine Nature as Jesus "fully" possessed and gave allegiance to __and as an "obedient" son, protected?
 
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Goinheix

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Nowhere in the Bible we read that Jesus was fully God. In his physical body (he dont have any other existence than his body) Jesus was not divine at all. That is what Paul explain and what the Gospels protrait
 
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Ormly

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"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this." Isaiah 9:6-7 (KJV)

Ask yourself these questions: When was Jesus ever called the titles in the above passage when He lived on earth? Who performed this that He should be called these titles and what did Jesus have to do for them to be bestowed upon Him?

Who is coming again in clouds with great Glory? see Mark 13:26
 
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Mark_Sam

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Goinheix said:
where the scriptures states that Jesus becomes fully God?
Click to expand...

You are correct in stating that Jesus didn't become fully God ... He was fully God from eternity.

John 1:1, 14 (emphasis mine)
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. [...] And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth."

John 10:30 (brackets mine)
"I [Jesus] and My Father [God] are one."

John 8:58 (alluding Exodus 3:14)
Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”

And since you mentioned St. Paul earlier:

Colossians 2:9 (brackets mine)
"For in Him [Jesus] dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily"

These are just for starters ...
 
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Ormly

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Mark_Sam said:
You are correct in stating that Jesus didn't become fully God ... He was fully God from eternity.
Click to expand...

Not hardly except in the foreknowledge of God, His reality yet to be made actual by His birth and His life lived unto His Father "That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he (Father) might gather together in one all things in Christ (Jesus), both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: Ephesians 1:10 (KJV) and then Mark 13:26 will happen.


Yes, but this was written of Jesus AFTER the cross and ascension and not before when it was not revealed to John who Jesus would become because His obedience to the Father that Paul later wrote of in Hebrews

John 10:30 (brackets mine)
"I [Jesus] and My Father [God] are one."
Click to expand...

But that is also Jesus' prayer for you. "That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: John 17:21-22 (KJV)

Are you there yet? ;^)

John 8:58 (alluding Exodus 3:14)
Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”
Click to expand...

True. And He was not pulling their leg about that. However, His oneness with the Father, being of the very Word of God described by John in his gospel chap 1:1-4 speaks of how He could claim His uniqueness. God withheld only certain bits of knowledge from Jesus.

And since you mentioned St. Paul earlier:

Colossians 2:9 (brackets mine)
"For in Him [Jesus] dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily"

These are just for starters ...
Click to expand...

Again, Paul spoke of all that about Jesus AFTER Jesus left this earth and identity was fully made known, not before.
You have to remember that not while on earth the disciples didn't realize who Jesus was and they were with Him day and night for over three years.
 
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Goinheix

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Offcourse brakets are your, yours only. The real brackest will be (Christ) not (Jesus). It seems almost impossible to make christians understand the huge difference between Jesus and Christ.
Nowhere in the Bible we found a verse saying that Jesus (not Christ) is God.
 
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Jpark

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Then the Holy Spirit, when He came in bodily form in Luke 3:22, must not be divine. Some translations render this as appearance and shape.

Anyways, divinity is not found in form, but in authority. Or does that mean angels, who are spirits, are divine?

I made a thread a while ago... here it is:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7543263/

The key passage that will resolve this Jesus' divinity controversy is Col. 1:19 and Col. 2:9:

For it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him,

For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form [again, this could mean appearance],

Jesus is God because God is in Him.

John 3:34-35

For He whom God has sent speaks the words of God; for He gives the Spirit without measure [Literally 'because He does not give the Spirit by measure']. The Father loves the Son and has given all things into His hand.

John 6:63

It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.

John 6:68

Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have words of eternal life.



On the other hand,

Romans 1:20 seems to define God:

For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

Invisible attributes = Spirit = Omnipotence + divine nature

I have been advocating for some time that Spirit in John 4:24 means limitlessness.

Anyways, maybe this means that divinity is not found in authority, but in form? What is the form of God?
 
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Mark_Sam

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Do you believe in adoptionism; that God the Christ entered the man Jesus of Nazareth at his Baptism, and left him at the cross (or something similar; there are many versions of this teaching)? If so, this was declared as heresy by the catholic Church in the 2nd century.

You say that Christ is not Jesus? I think Jesus, Peter and the Father says it otherwise.

Matthew 16:13-17
When Jesus came into the region of Caesarea Philippi, He asked His disciples, saying, “Who do men say that I, the Son of Man, am?”
So they said, “Some say John the Baptist, some Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”
He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?”
Simon Peter answered and said, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.

Here we see that Jesus, the Son of Man, is Christ, the Son of God ... And it was the Father who revealed this truth!

Now, if there was a difference between Jesus and Christ, clearly this was the perfect opportunity for Him to correct Peter. But instead He blessed him for confessing that He, the man that stood in front of Peter, was Jesus the Christ, Son of Man and Son of God.
 
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Goinheix

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I never say that Jesus is not the Christ. What I say is that Christ and Jesus are two diferent "things". Obama nad the Presitent of USA are two different things. Offcourse Obama is the President; but still they are two different things. The Jew did belive in the promised Christ, but they didnt believe that the Chrsit was Jesus. Christ, who is the Verb, God himself have existed from the beggining and is he who created everything, visible and invisible. Eventualy, the Verb entered this world in a fisical way, in the body of a human. I am not sure whta exactly hapes inside Mary body but Jesus was the Christ from the very moment we can say it was a baby inside Mary. I can be wrong, but after resurrection Jesus was recieved in Heaven in a glorified body. I dont understand fully, but I guess that the Verb didnt abandon his body and still he is Jesus, Jesus Christ.

What we have to be fery carefully is to understand what we are reading. If we read something refering to Christ, not cesesarely means Jesus. Christ was at the begginig, creation all; not Jesus. The Verb becomes Jesus way too many years later (I will say millons odf millons years, but that is another issue).

When we reda "Jesus" is in reference to Jesus the son of Mary, the one who walked Galilea and was nealed at the cross. When we read "Christ" means the Verb, the second person of God. When we read "Jesus Christ", and "Chrsit Jesus" means same as Christ; only that is making clear that Christ was not other than Jesus.
 
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ServantofServants

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Tim Myers said:
"However, in his physical body, Jesus was wholly man and in no way divine."

I think you might get some argument on that one.....
Click to expand...


Some teach that Jesus is wholly God, and wholly Man, united in the hypostasis called Jesus of Nazareth, in such a way that Jesus kept his human mind and spirit, and at the same time, kept his Divine mind and spirit, while both hypostases made up a single hypostasis, Jesus of Nazareth. This is the Trinitarian doctrine.

If this is true, who died on the Cross? Was it the Man, or was it God, or was it both? Since God cannot die, and Jesus was God, then either this doctrine is wrong, and our understanding of the nature of Jesus is other than what it is represented as being, or it is right, and God actually died.

But that is a contradiction of the essential nature of God, since God cannot die, having as His essential nature, eternal immortality. How could God, Who is Life Itself, die? Makes no sense to me. Perhaps it does to others. It is a contradiction in terms. I reject this teaching on logical grounds. God cannot die. Let us settle this right away.

Some teach that Jesus is wholly Man only, and the Spirit of God was infused in the Man, Jesus, in such a way that Jesus had only a human mind and spirit, while God was spatially in, or within, him by means of His
Spirit [ie., "God was in [or "within"] Christ Jesus, reconciling the world to Himself"]. But Paul equates the Spirit of God with the Spirit of Christ.
IF this is true, then God died. From this I see that The Word and the Spirit of Christ are the same, essentially

I also believe that John states that "The Word [ie., "The Logos", or Mind, will, and emotions of God] WAS God, and the Word was WITH [or, "along side" God."].

IF Jesus the Man == the Word of God, then Jesus the Man was preexistent with God when the world was made, since God made the world through His Word, as Genesis states. I provisionally accept this teaching, since Christians, Jews, and Muslims all agree that this is truth. But I also believe that the FIRST man was Adam, not Jesus, and made after the image and likeness of God Himself. Paul states that Jesus is the LAST Man. With this I agree.

This is a possibility, IF we interpret the later words of John which state that "the Word became flesh" as "The Word "Clothed itself in flesh".
This would make Jesus a spirit [ie., "the Spirit of the Word"], and not a Man. I cannot accept this, since the Gospels all teach that Jesus was wholly Man. How could a Man clothe himself as a Man?. This also makes no sense. It could only mean that the Word of God == God Himself, and not a second hypostasis. This I reject, since God cannot die.

Some teach that Jesus is wholly Man only, and he was just "inspired" by the Father [ie., "God, the God"]. This is the view of humanists.
If this is true, then Paul is wrong, when he states that "God was in Christ Jesus, reconciling the world to Himself." This is what Orthodox, Conservative, and Liberal Jews teach. This is also what Muslims and humanists teach. I reject this.

Some teach that God only "appeared" to be a Man, and that a Man did not die on the Cross. This would mean that Jesus did not actually die, and Christianity is false, since we teach that he was wholly a Man, in flesh, bones, and blood, and was not just a "spirit". If this is true, either the Apostles and Gospel writers lied, or we do not actually understand just what they meant when they wrote. I also reject this.

Does this mean that God was "in the midst of Christ" [in some part within him, such as the spirit of his mind] reconciling the world to Himself, or does it mean that God was THROUGH the means of Christ, reconciling the world to Himself.? This is a possibility, and I provisionally accept it.

Is God a Unity,but appers in various "modes of operation"?
Does God just manifest Himself as the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, depending on His actions, as modalists say?
If this is true, then God actually died, since He manifested Himself as a Whole Man. This I cannot accept, since I believe that the Man, Christ Jesus was a whole man, and actually died.

Is God a Unity, as Moses says, "Hear oh Israel, YHWH our GOD is one YHWH" as the Jews and the Muslims say, and also as the Philosophers of Greece said, essentially?

Is God a Trinity, as Trinitarians say, and few truly understand?
Is Jesus the Father, appearing as a Man, Christ Jesus, as modalists say?
Is the Holy Spirit also the Father, as Modalists say?
Is the Father infused in the Man Christ Jesus?
Is the Spirit of Jesus also the Spirit of the Father?
Is the Spirit of the Father also the Spirit of Jesus?
Was it God Who died, or was it the Man Christ Jesus who died?
IF Jesus was wholly God, how could God, Who alone possesses immortality, Die, actually?
If Jesus was wholly Man and wholly God, then Jesus did not die, since God cannot die, and all men do die.
If God actually died, wouldn't all which exists stop existing, since in Him all things are held together?

Here is how I reconcile all these things.
1) Jesus was wholly a Man, since he who rejects this is of the spirit of Antichrist.
2) Jesus was not God, since he never makes this claim, and indeed, seems to me to reject any claims of men that he is God. Instead, he is the Son of God.
3) God, through the Holy Spirit, entered the womb of Mary, entered one of her seeds, and quickened it, and thus, the Holy thing begotten was called "The Son of God", as the Angel Gabriel tells Mary.
4) During this quickening, God, through His Word, infused the Man, Christ Jesus with His Spirit. and dwelled in the spirit of the mind of Jesus, givng him the life of God, and the Word of God, in the spirit of his mind.
5) Because of this infusion, Jesus had the body, mind, and spirit of a Man, and the mind [or "Logos"] of God, through the means of the Spirit of God.
6) This allowed him to be wholly a man, in the flesh, and wholly God, in the spirit of his mind, by the means of the Spirit of God.
7) Because of this, I must believe that it was the Man, Christ Jesus, who died on the Cross, and the Word [or, "Logos"] of God returned to the Father when he breathed his last breath, returning the spirit of his mind [ie., "The Word, or Logos"] to the Father.
8) A corollary of this is that this is exactly how other men are created, and the ONLY spirit in man is his breath, until the Spirit of God is imparted to the spirit of his mind, through the Logos of God, by means of His Spirit.
9) A second corrollary of this is that the soul of man is his entire being, and is not immortal, since all men die.
10) The end of all this is the Resurrection of Jesus Christ. When this happened, the Logos of God returned to the soul of the man, and made him alive in the flesh once more, in the same way Adam was made alive, by the Breath, or Spirit of God.
11) A corollary of this is that Jesus is now the preexistent Logos of God, and has an eternal body and incorruptible mind, through the operation of the Spirit of God.
12) A second corollary of this is that Jesus no longer needs to breathe air, as men do, since his life is now the Life of God.
13) The last corollary of this is that we too shall have bodies like his when we are changed or resurrecterd.

Donald L McDaniel
 
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Jpark

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Oh He was divine. He was just concealing it.

1 Cor. 2:11 For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God.

Matt. 24:36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.

By the word of God, the only way someone can be the Father is if they know the time and day of the end. Since only the Holy Spirit knows, that someone must be the Holy Spirit Himself.

John 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.

John 6:68 Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have words of eternal life.

John 3:34-35 For He whom God has sent speaks the words of God; for He gives the Spirit without measure. The Father loves the Son and has given all things into His hand.

John 5:11 And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.



1 John 5:6 It is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth.

John 14:6 Jesus *said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.

BibleGateway.com - Keyword Search: \"knowledge of the truth\"

Phil. 3:8, 10 More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ, that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death;

And look at that. We have a perfect match.

John 8:31-32 So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, “If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.”

2 Tim. 3:12 Indeed, all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will be persecuted.

Mark 10:29-30 Jesus said, “Truly I say to you, there is no one who has left house or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or farms, for My sake and for the gospel’s sake, but that he will receive a hundred times as much now in the present age, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and farms, along with persecutions; and in the age to come, eternal life.

Job 42:10 The LORD restored the fortunes of Job when he prayed for his friends, and the LORD increased all that Job had twofold.

John 10:10 I came that they may have life, and have it abundantly.

Hebrews 5:9 And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation,

1 Cor. 15:45 So also it is written, “The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.


Gen. 2:7 Then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life [air; Gen. 7:22]; and man became a living being [Lit 'soul', existence; Gen. 7:23].

Gen. 3:5 For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

Gen. 3:22 Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”—

Gen. 11:6 The LORD said, “Behold, they are one people, and they all have the same language. And this is what they began to do, and now nothing which they purpose to do will be impossible for them.

Job 32:7-9 “I thought age should speak,
And increased years should teach wisdom.
8 “But it is a spirit in man,
And the breath of the Almighty gives them understanding.
9 “The abundant in years may not be wise,
Nor may elders understand justice.

Dan. 4:33-34

Man was created with only a soul (like every other animal) and gained a spirit when he ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, which is made by God and thus good.

Humans were already intelligent. They just became more intelligent. Because soul + spirit = complete

Nebuchadnezzar lost both components. Hence, he lost all capability to be human.



Anyways,

2 Cor. 5:16 Therefore from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh; even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him in this way no longer.

Besides, Titus 3:5 and Hebrews 10:22. The blood of Jesus and the Holy Spirit are not separate nor do they work together. They are one.
 
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