If you hold a gun to a man's head to force him to do your bidding, he no longer has free will.
Of course he still has free will. He can comply, or struggle, or plead, or just let himself get shot, etc.
I've been struggling for years with a theological problem that I can't quite see through. It's this: why would God ever allow evil to be done in God's name?
There are a number of examples of actions by those purporting to act in God's name that seem positively evil. These include recent history (clergy abuse scandals), somewhat older history (Inquisition, Crusades), and Biblical history ("bad" kings of Israel). It's possible to quibble with any of these, but I think the general proposition stands that some very bad things have been done, publicly, in the name of the Church. So I throw these out not for specific debate in this thread, but just as examples of the sorts of problems that trouble me.
My concern is that it does not seem that a loving and kind God would allow humans to publicly misrepresent him by doing evil in his name. So does that mean God is not loving and kind? Or God does not exist (or does not have the power to lead his people)? Or that God values humans' free will even more than the integrity of his "body" in this world, the Church?
If anyone has thoughts or can point me to thoughtful resources in this area, I'd appreciate it! Also, if this has been extensively discussed already in some other thread, please feel free to post a link. My searching hasn't unearthed much...
Thanks in advance for any thoughts!
None of which is his own desired act, so he has not acted freely at all.
"Free" is an absolute term, like "unique." Nothing is "almost unique"--it's either unique or it's not.
It's already been answered multiple times: God allows free will.Interesting discussion. But back to the original question, if anyone's interested: why would God ever allow his church to be debased, and his name dragged in the mud?
No, it IS why.You're changing the question to why does God allow free will.That's not why, it's how.
I am not looking for an argument; I actually want to understand the question I posed (see #1...).No, it IS why.You're changing the question to why does God allow free will.
God allows free will because things like love, obedience, and loyalty are meaningless if there's simply no other option.
And I'm answering your question.I am not looking for an argument; I actually want to understand the question I posed (see #1...).
I am not looking for an argument; I actually want to understand the question I posed (see #1...).
So, does anyone else have any insights to share?
Just noticed your post:I've been struggling for years with a theological problem that I can't quite see through. It's this: why would God ever allow evil to be done in God's name?
Not of any importance.I'd argue though that free will is not and does not have to be an absolute.
For example, the ability to make a particular choice exists within the boundaries of the reality that we each inhabit. I can't, for example, choose to make the sun and moon switch places. Natural laws (or scientific facts, if you prefer) provide one constraint on the exercise of free choice.
The question of "evil in the Church" is the same as "evil in the world."
For whatever reason God would allow evil people in the world at large, He would also allow those evil people to sit in church building pews.
We can (and I have) debate what "free will" means in this context, but God apparently has a reason why He allowed mankind to make evil choices in the first place, and given that He did, the same reason would apply in why He allows men who make evil choices to sit in church building pews.
Notice my wording here. "Church" means "those who are called out," that is, "the elect," the Body of Christ. Not everyone who sits in church building pews are of the Church. I would argue that these people doing evil in the name of Jesus are not members of the Body of Christ...they're just sitting in church building pews.
They are SUPPOSED to act for God, sure, but that doesn't in any way mean they always will. Being a Christian doesn't mean we suddenly become sin-free or that God removes our ability to make free will decisions.The way it feels different to me is that the Church is supposedly, in some sense, God's body here on earth. This is what sets it apart from the world. So when the Church (through its leaders) acts, those actions have a putatively divine purpose that we would not necessarily ascribe to anyone else acting in the rest of the world. When the Church acts in an evil way and harms people, it tends to drive those people away from God.
Thanks RD. I guess the question of evil in the Church -- specifically by Church leadership -- feels different to me than the question of evil in the world generally.
The way it feels different to me is that the Church is supposedly, in some sense, God's body here on earth. This is what sets it apart from the world. So when the Church (through its leaders) acts, those actions have a putatively divine purpose that we would not necessarily ascribe to anyone else acting in the rest of the world. When the Church acts in an evil way and harms people, it tends to drive those people away from God.
Does that distinction make sense, or do you think I'm off target?
Yep, that sort of situation troubles me. I understand that, human nature being what it is, these things will happen. But I have trouble reconciling this reality with the faith I feel I am supposed to have, in an omnipotent caring God who acts in this world primarily through the church.Having worked in the church before, I have had similar thoughts. In many cases, those who rise in the ranks of the church don't appear to be the most spiritually mature, but perhaps the ones who are better at manipulating the system and getting what they want. Many smaller churches are like that especially when two or three families take over a church and all of its programs and it isn't how spiritually mature you are but who you know that matters. It can be very disappointing to see.
I've been struggling for years with a theological problem that I can't quite see through. It's this: why would God ever allow evil to be done in God's name?
There are a number of examples of actions by those purporting to act in God's name that seem positively evil. These include recent history (clergy abuse scandals), somewhat older history (Inquisition, Crusades), and Biblical history ("bad" kings of Israel). It's possible to quibble with any of these, but I think the general proposition stands that some very bad things have been done, publicly, in the name of the Church. So I throw these out not for specific debate in this thread, but just as examples of the sorts of problems that trouble me.
My concern is that it does not seem that a loving and kind God would allow humans to publicly misrepresent him by doing evil in his name. So does that mean God is not loving and kind? Or God does not exist (or does not have the power to lead his people)? Or that God values humans' free will even more than the integrity of his "body" in this world, the Church?
If anyone has thoughts or can point me to thoughtful resources in this area, I'd appreciate it! Also, if this has been extensively discussed already in some other thread, please feel free to post a link. My searching hasn't unearthed much...
Thanks in advance for any thoughts!
It has troubled me also at times. It is amazing though when you think about it that God can use us at all. As humans we have such a bent towards being selfish and wandering away from Him it is a wonder that God can do much of anything with us at all. He sure couldn't without his indwelling Spirit guiding us along the way.Yep, that sort of situation troubles me. I understand that, human nature being what it is, these things will happen. But I have trouble reconciling this reality with the faith I feel I am supposed to have, in an omnipotent caring God who acts in this world primarily through the church.
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