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Philosophical Choices

Latreia

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In lieu of going to university, confined to home by a domineering mother, and in possession of almost zero self-esteem, I was given to raiding the neighborhood library for some kind of windows on life.

Over some 50 years of intense, eclectic, and self-teaching of the arts and humanities, I compiled notebooks filled with anything and everything that I deemed wisdom or worthy of retaining to read many times over. Thus, I was never formally educated or programmed or indoctrinated per se.

My informal education was through my own natural selection of that which I found to be of interest. Now I am 61 years of age. Never touched a computer until my husband bought our first one in October of 2001. Since then, it has not only been an education, crash course, and mind-boggling awakenings, but a long journey to the state of web savvy.

Thus I think to explain my rather unorthodox approach to the subject of philosophy and thinkers. In great contrast to the CF members in their youth and of college classes, I see the roles of philosophers in a somewhat different light.

Kierkegaard, for instance. Anther member posts this about him:

"Søren Kierkegaard for recognising that the human individual transcended reason." ~ TheGMan

That sounds a little off and simplistic about the Kierkegaard I am familiar with.
Hope that Spinoza fares better, since I admire his writings so much.

My readings and studies have led me much more deeply into esthetics, ethics, and an appreciation of the best things I know about life as being expressions of a Creator, aka God.

How intellectuals, collegians, and today's students of science and technology can be so indifferent to ordinary common sense and human values is a mystery. To what do I credit the lack of esthetic appreciation and basic benevolence reflected in so many posts on the CF fora?

Affrontery and insults seem to be the order of today's attitudes. Total disrespect for anything possibly learned from traditions, or years of life experiences, and especially the rightful place of parents and relatives of any kind.

The asthetic contributions to the arts by the Christian faith stands out quite vividly. It is as though the beauty passed down through the centuries was invisible to those who deprecate the Christian faith. Surely, it boggles the intelligent mind that the beauty in sacred paintings, sculpture, architecture and great choral music by the world's greatest composers are all ignored in the rush to eradicate all reason for Chrisitanity to exist at all.

What really happens when the supporting structures of any accomplishment, whether it be a cathedral, a sacred chorale, or holy sacraments of worship and traditions are destroyed? Centuries of human struggle and spiritual striving for a clearer sight and understanding of the Divine are swept aside...but for what?

Replaced by what? Puerile ideas of self-importance and rebellion and slow subsumation by all the "non-s" and "anti-s"? "New" and "modern" and "revolutionary" ideas that are actually none of those things, but erroneous idealogies that have been triumphant, tried, enforced, and found wanting, at each and every stage of history?

Now is the opportunity for those members who still follow the ideas of the asthetics of philosophy, moral value, and strength in the heritage that was meant to be passed down through the ages to those who have the wisdom to perpetuate them.

Post here the personal values and ethics that have been proven sound and gracious and beneficial to all. Post here the best of what your favorite philosophers have written. We shall try to work around the negative and sarcastic comments to which we may be subject.



http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/spinoza/

Baruch Spinoza:

God or Nature

"On God" begins with some deceptively simple definitions of terms that would be familiar to any seventeenth century philosopher.

"By substance I understand what is in itself and is conceived through itself"; "By attribute I understand what the intellect perceives of a substance, as constituting its essence";
"By God I understand a being absolutely infinite, i.e., a substance consisting of an infinity of attributes, of which each one expresses an eternal and infinite essence."


...as of Proposition Sixteen, there is a subtle but important
shift in Spinoza's language. God is now described not so much as the underlying substance of all things, but as the universal, immanent and sustaining cause of all that exists:


"From the necessity of the divine nature there must follow infinitely many things in infinitely many modes, (i.e., everything that can fall under an infinite intellect)".

There are, Spinoza insists, two sides of Nature. First, there is the active,
productive aspect of the universe -- God and his attributes, from which all else follows. This is what Spinoza, employing the same terms he used in the Short Treatise, calls Natura naturans, "naturing Nature". Strictly speaking, this is identical with God.


The other aspect of the universe is that which is produced and sustained by the active aspect, Natura naturata, "natured Nature".
By Natura naturata I understand whatever follows from the necessity of God's nature, or from any of God's attributes, i.e., all the modes of God's
attributes insofar as they are considered as things that are in God, and can
neither be nor be conceived without God. (Ip29s)."
 

FreezBee

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Latreia said:
Over some 50 years of intense, eclectic, and self-teaching of the arts and humanities, I compiled notebooks filled with anything and everything that I deemed wisdom or worthy of retaining to read many times over. Thus, I was never formally educated or programmed or indoctrinated per se.



But also never guided by a mentor, if I dare ask? Or, then again, maybe the holy spirit?

Latreia said:
My informal education was through my own natural selection of that which I found to be of interest. Now I am 61 years of age. Never touched a computer until my husband bought our first one in October of 2001. Since then, it has not only been an education, crash course, and mind-boggling awakenings, but a long journey to the state of web savvy.


We all have to carry our cross :)


Latreia said:
Hope that Spinoza fares better, since I admire his writings so much.

My readings and studies have led me much more deeply into esthetics, ethics, and an appreciation of the best things I know about life as being expressions of a Creator, aka God.


Or was that your assumption from the beginning?


Latreia said:
How intellectuals, collegians, and today's students of science and technology can be so indifferent to ordinary common sense and human values is a mystery. To what do I credit the lack of esthetic appreciation and basic benevolence reflected in so many posts on the CF fora?
Latreia said:
Affrontery and insults seem to be the order of today's attitudes. Total disrespect for anything possibly learned from traditions, or years of life experiences, and especially the rightful place of parents and relatives of any kind.


I suggest you read a bit less C.S. Lewis, and you should come out quite nicely :)


Latreia said:
The asthetic contributions to the arts by the Christian faith stands out quite vividly. It is as though the beauty passed down through the centuries was invisible to those who deprecate the Christian faith. Surely, it boggles the intelligent mind that the beauty in sacred paintings, sculpture, architecture and great choral music by the world's greatest composers are all ignored in the rush to eradicate all reason for Chrisitanity to exist at all.



And Christians themselves have of course always showed the greatest respect for the products of other cultures?

Latreia said:
What really happens when the supporting structures of any accomplishment, whether it be a cathedral, a sacred chorale, or holy sacraments of worship and traditions are destroyed? Centuries of human struggle and spiritual striving for a clearer sight and understanding of the Divine are swept aside...but for what?
Latreia said:
Replaced by what? Puerile ideas of self-importance and rebellion and slow subsumation by all the "non-s" and "anti-s"? "New" and "modern" and "revolutionary" ideas that are actually none of those things, but erroneous idealogies that have been triumphant, tried, enforced, and found wanting, at each and every stage of history?



True, nothing much is new in history - not even conservatism :)

Latreia said:
Now is the opportunity for those members who still follow the ideas
Latreia said:
of the asthetics of philosophy, moral value, and strength in the heritage that was meant to be passed down through the ages to those who have the wisdom to perpetuate them.



Did I remember to suggest that you read a bit less C.S. Lewis?

Latreia said:
Post here the personal values and ethics that have been proven sound and gracious and beneficial to all. Post here the best of what your favorite philosophers have written. We shall try to work around the negative and sarcastic comments to which we may be subject.


:D Ok, I'm guilty :bow:

Latreia said:
Baruch Spinoza:

God or Nature

Spinoza was excommunicated from the Jewish sociaety because he did not respect the Jewish traditions.


- FreezBee
 
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LoveJoy

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Interesting! I have read the only two posts, and already am in over my head. My experience with Christian philosophers is only beginning, but I am trying very hard to grow in understanding. I am trying to understand existentialism, and am digging through Mr. Moreland's "Philosophical Foundations for a Christian Worldview." However, I am also digging around in Pap's "Semantics and Necessary Truths" which has little enough to do with Christ. Any advice on where to continue?
 
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FreezBee

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LoveJoy said:
My experience with Christian philosophers is only beginning, but I am trying very hard to grow in understanding. I am trying to understand existentialism, and am digging through Mr. Moreland's "Philosophical Foundations for a Christian Worldview." However, I am also digging around in Pap's "Semantics and Necessary Truths" which has little enough to do with Christ. Any advice on where to continue?

Hi LoveJoy;

If Christian existentialism is your interest, then besides Kierkegaard, I would recommend Pär Lagerkvist and Antoine de Saint-Exupery. If you don't already have that, then some familiarity with scholastic philosophy is recommended for participating in discussions on the CF - you'll need to know , what Occam's Razor is, e,g, :)


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Species8472

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Tyger, Tyger, burning bright,
In the forests of the night;
What immortal hand or eye,
could frame thy fearful symmetry?

In what distant deeps or skies
Burnt the fire of thine eyes?
On what wings dare (s)he aspire?
What the hand dare seize the fire?

And what shoulder, & what art,
Could twist the sinews of thy heart?
And when thy heart began to beat,
What dread hand? & what dread feet?

What the hammer? what the chain,
In what furnace was thy brain?
What the anvil? what dread grasp
Dare its deadly terrors clasp!

When the stars threw down their spears
And water'd heaven with their tears:
Did (s)he smile his work to see?
Did he who made the Lamb make thee?

Tyger Tyger burning bright,
In the forests of the night:
What immortal hand or eye,
Dare frame thy fearful symmetry?

--William Blake
Read the Marriage of Heaven and Hell.
(excellent philosophical piece)
;)
 
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FreezBee

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Species8472 said:
....
--William Blake
Read the Marriage of Heaven and Hell.
(excellent philosophical piece)
;)

Quite interesting indeed :thumbsup:

So let's continue with more quotes:

Zweierlei will der echte Mann: Gefahr und Spiel. Deshalb will er das Weib als das gefährlichste Spielzeug.

- Friedrich Nietzsche, Also Sprach Zarathustra

I particularly like this quote :)


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LoveJoy

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FreezBee said:
Hi LoveJoy;

If Christian existentialism is your interest, then besides Kierkegaard, I would recommend Pär Lagerkvist and Antoine de Saint-Exupery. If you don't already have that, then some familiarity with scholastic philosophy is recommended for participating in discussions on the CF - you'll need to know , what Occam's Razor is, e,g, :)


- FreezBee
Thank you for your response to my post! I will look into them at my first opportunity (as my classes afford them).

As to Mr. Occam and his razor, wouldn't it be a joy if we all came to these forums equipped with such info? Sadly, that liberal education is muchly lost, and most of us will either not learn the thing (ever) or have to pick it up as we go. I promise to strive to make all my post as technically correct, and as well reasoned, as possible.
 
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Latreia

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FreezBee said:
Quite interesting indeed :thumbsup:

So let's continue with more quotes:

Zweierlei will der echte Mann: Gefahr und Spiel. Deshalb will er das Weib als das gefährlichste Spielzeug.

- Friedrich Nietzsche, Also Sprach Zarathustra

I particularly like this quote :)

- FreezBee

"Two different kinds wants the genuine man: Danger and play. Therefore it wants the woman as the most dangerous toy."
- Friedrich Nietzsche, Also Sprach Zarathustra



Quoting in the original German, makes sense in trying to impress others.
But the quote is almost as obscure as it is misogyny, and most unpleasant.
 
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Latreia

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LoveJoy said:
Thank you for your response to my post! I will look into them at my first opportunity (as my classes afford them).

As to Mr. Occam and his razor, wouldn't it be a joy if we all came to these forums equipped with such info? Sadly, that liberal education is muchly lost, and most of us will either not learn the thing (ever) or have to pick it up as we go. I promise to strive to make all my post as technically correct, and as well reasoned, as possible.

It is not all that impressive, actually. Liberal education is very destructive, engorging the ego while disposing of any possibilities of wisdom.

Occam's Razor is a technique of debate, which is mostly used as a baseball bat to pound other's viewpoints into pulp. Debate is sleazy and unprincipled as the sole goal is victory for one and defeat for the other. The only way it hones your intelligence is to turn it predatory.

First, demystifiy Occam's Razor:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_Razor
Occam's Razor (also spelled Ockham's Razor), is a principle attributed to the 14th-century English logician and Franciscan friar, William of Ockham.
It forms the basis of methodological reductionism, also called the principle of parsimony or law of economy.
In its simplest form, Occam's Razor states that one should make no more assumptions than needed.

Big, hairy deal.

Try these comments:

http://www.scottberkun.com/essays/essay40.htm
Why smart people defend bad ideas
By Scott Berkun, April 2005


"Success at defending bad ideas I’m not proud to admit that I have a degree in Logic and Computation from Carnegie Mellon University. Majoring in logic is not the kind of thing that makes people want to
talk to you at parties, or read your essays.
But one thing I did learn after years of studying advanced logic theory is that proficiency in argument can easily be used to overpower others, even when you are dead wrong.
If you learn a few tricks of logic and debate, you can refute the obvious, and defend the ridiculous.
If the people you’re arguing with aren’t as comfortable in the tactics of argument, or aren’t as arrogant as you are, they may even give in and agree with you.

Short of obtaining a degree in logic, or studying the nuances of debate, remember this one simple rule for defusing those who are skilled at defending bad ideas: Simply because they cannot be proven wrong, does not make them right.
Most of the tricks of logic and debate refute questions and attacks, but fail to establish any true justification for a given idea."

Before you get too far along, go to this site:

http://www.ex-atheist.com
Has your liberal, Marxist college professor given you a List of 1001 Reasons, A Mathematical Equation, And A Pie Chart that prove why God can't possibly exist?

Have Courage!

Help Yourself To The Inspirational Essays, Logical Arguments and Knock-Down, Drag-Out Debates of An Ex-Atheist.

Oh yes, and C.S. Lewis also said this:


"Wherever any precept of traditional morality is simply challenged to produce its credentials, as though the burden of proof lay on it, we have taken the wrong position."
~ C.S. Lewis

 
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Latreia

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tiger


Tiger, tiger, burning bright In the forest of the night,

What immortal hand or eye Could Frame thy fearful symmetry?
In what distant deeps or skies Burnt the fire of thine eyes?
On what wings dare he aspire? What the hand dare seize the fire?
And what shoulder and what art Could twist the sinews of thy heart?
And, when thy heart began to beat, What dread hand and what dread feet?

What the hammer? what the chain? In what furnace was thy brain?
What the anvil? what dread grasp Dare its deadly terrors clasp?
When the stars threw down their spears, And watered heaven with their
tears,
Did he smile his work to see? Did he who made the lamb make thee?

Tiger, tiger, burning bright In the forests of the night,
What immortal hand or eye Dare frame thy fearful symmetry?

by William Blake
 
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FreezBee

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Latreia said:
Quoting in the original German, makes sense in trying to impress others.
But the quote is almost as obscure as it is misogyny, and most unpleasant.

I was quoting in German, because I wasn't sure what would be the best English translation. But why is the quote misogony - it speaks about men (= male humans), not about women, about the attitude of men towards women, not about their attitude towards themselves.

Latreia, maybe if you developed a bit more sense of humor, you would not need to rely that much on C.S. Lewis.


seek peace in God

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Latreia

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FreezBee said:
I was quoting in German, because I wasn't sure what would be the best English translation. But why is the quote misogony - it speaks about men (= male humans), not about women, about the attitude of men towards women, not about their attitude towards themselves.

Latreia, maybe if you developed a bit more sense of humor, you would not need to rely that much on C.S. Lewis.
seek peace in God

- FreezBee

:sigh:

But is it considerate to quote in German, without first reassuring yourself that all who will read it understand Nietzsche's language? Perhaps a true scholar also wishes to sincerely convey knowledge without condescension of any kind.

If there were several translations, they might have been offered, graciously, along with your own understanding of the quote. Instead, appearing profound about a philosopher's thought by default of readers' ability to decipher the German language, does not strike me as minimum courtesy.

Without other recourse, I accessed an online translator for the quote, upon which I could only base my reaction to that, which was an unpleasant little pretension of said philosopher's egomania.

As for your ability to accurately assess my sense of humor with such a minimal basis upon which to pronounce judgement, the repetitive references to C.S. Lewis with no knowledge of how much or little I have read of that one author, or any other author, the emphasis is almost entirely upon the critic's limitations.

IMHO
:holy:
 
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FreezBee

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Latreia said:
But is it considerate to quote in German, without first reassuring yourself that all who will read it understand Nietzsche's language? Perhaps a true scholar also wishes to sincerely convey knowledge without condescension of any kind.


Please look at Species8472's signature :)

It has a quote from "Thus spake Zarathustra" (as the English translation apparently is called). That's why I decided to quote that same book with the only quote I had at hand (I used it on another website in a situation, where it was appropriate). The meaning of the quote was of less importance, and certainly was not directed towards you. Excuse me, if that's what you thought :bow:

Latreia said:
As for your ability to accurately assess my sense of humor with such a minimal basis upon which to pronounce judgement, the repetitive references to C.S. Lewis with no knowledge of how much or little I have read of that one author, or any other author, the emphasis is almost entirely upon the critic's limitations.

Excuse me again, it's just that I am actually reading C.S. Lewis' "The Abolition of Man" in these days, and I find it to convey the same kind of Platonistic conservatism that I discerned in your OP. You might have it from elsewhere, but I believe to remember that you used to have a C.S. Lewis quote somewhere, and that's why I guessed that you probably were somewhat inspired by C.S. Lewis.

True, my estimation of your sense of humor tells more about me than it does about you, but it really isn´t humoristic to start a post telling that you don't think much of young academics, continue from there to tell about respect for tradition and the works of prior times, and then end up with an excommunicated Jew as your favorite philosopher, that is a person who broke with tradition!

Do you see, what I mean?


- FreezBee
 
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