Peter Is Not The Rock!

namericanboy · Oct 23, 2008

visionary said:
The Waldenses
Read all about it

Wow..interesting read..Thanks so very much...

lionroar0 · Oct 23, 2008

visionary said:
The Waldenses
Read all about it

That's after 538 Ad.

Peace

LittleLambofJesus · Oct 23, 2008

Anglian said:
Hey, I thought this was no ECFs thread No LCFs either

peace,

Anglian

Ok. What about the FCFs [aka "First Church Fathers"]

This was written before there were "Protestants" ehehe.......

Revelation 2:3 and endurance thou are having and thou bear because of the Name of Me and not are wearied.
4 "But I-am-having against of thee. That the Love of thee, the first, thou hast left"

JacktheCatholic · Oct 23, 2008

LittleLambofJesus said:
1260 years Where does that come from?

From Dave.

visionary · Oct 23, 2008

Nazarenes, the leadership of the visiting teachers being given to Peter, while James the brother of Jesus was elected Nasi, or president of the Supreme Council, both on account of his kinship to the Messiah and his noted piety." (Schonfield, Hugh (1938). The History of Jewish Christianity From the First to the Twentieth Century. Book out of print, pp. 14-15.)

visionary · Oct 23, 2008

While "Messianic Judaism" is a relatively new term, the foundation of faith in the feasts and sabbath and dietary laws all were more or less still kept through the centuries. They were Sabbath-keepers, as were those who broke off communion with Rome after the Council of Chalcedon, namely the Abyssinian, the Jacobites, the Maronites, and the Armenians and the Kurds, who kept the food laws and denied confession and purgatory (Schaff-Herzog The New Encyclopædia of Religious Knowledge, art. Nestorians and Nestorianer above). Can we not identify with them?

visionary · Oct 23, 2008

The Churches in Gaul, appear to have been facilitated by the heavy concentration of Jews around Marseilles and Genoa, over the period 100-300 (see Gilbert Atlas of Jewish History, Dorset Press, 1984, map 17).

LittleLambofJesus · Oct 23, 2008

visionary said:
Nazarenes, the leadership of the visiting teachers being given to Peter, while James the brother of Jesus was elected Nasi, or president of the Supreme Council, both on account of his kinship to the Messiah and his noted piety." (Schonfield, Hugh (1938). The History of Jewish Christianity From the First to the Twentieth Century. Book out of print, pp. 14-15.)

Nararene.....JESUS......Pilate places on Sign..........

John 19:19 Writes yet also a title the Pilate and places on the stauros was yet having been written 'JESUS THE NAZARENE/nazwraioV <3480> THE KING OF THE JUDEANS'.
20 This then the title many read of the Judeans that near was the place of the City the where was crucified the Jesus and it was having been written to Hebrew, to Roman, to Greek.
21 Said then to the Pilate the Chief-priests of the Judeans "no thou be writing 'THE KING OF THE JUDEANS' but that that-One said 'King I Am of the Judeans'"
22 Answered the Pilate " which I have written I have written".

visionary · Oct 23, 2008

The Way
Acts supplied another title used to designate the early community of the church:

Acts 9:1
Meanwhile Saul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest and asked him for letters to the synagogues at Damascus, so that if he found any who belonged to The Way, men or women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem.
and
Acts 24:22
[During Paul's trial] But Felix who was rather well informed about The Way, adjourned the hearing...

In conclusion:

There is no reason to doubt that this too was a term used to designate the early community in Palestine around 40-60 CE. Eisenmann, James the Brother of Jesus: p599 Eisenmann & Wise, Dead Sea Scrolls Uncovered: p33

visionary · Oct 23, 2008

http://www.compassionatespirit.com/e...es-article.htm

They existed just outside of Judea, in Galilee and present-day Syria and Jordan (the Decapolis, Gaulanitis, Perea, and Nabatea, and nearby regions). The exact origin of the Ebionites is debated, but those who held views characteristic of the Ebionites existed in the first century. The Ebionites originated no later than the second century (when they are mentioned by Ireneaus) and continued to exist at least down through the late fourth century (when Epiphanius describes conversations he had with them), and probably continued into the fifth century and perhaps beyond. There are no known modern groups which are direct lineal descendants of the ancient Ebionites.

Who Were the Ebionites?

The Ebionites (from Hebrew ebionim, "the poor") were a sect of early followers of Jesus. They were one of several "Jewish Christian" groups, early followers of Jesus who considered themselves Jews.

visionary · Oct 23, 2008

There are two chief sources for our knowledge of the literature and ideas of the Ebionites:

1. Descriptions of the Ebionites and brief quotations from their writings by the church fathers, most importantly Irenaeus, Hippolytus, and Epiphanius of Salamis, all of whom considered the Ebionites to be heretics. The lengthiest and most complete of these comes from Epiphanius, who wrote his Panarion in the fourth century, describing and denouncing 80 heretical sects, among them the Ebionites (Panarion 30) and various other "Jewish Christian" and allied groups (Panarion 18, 19, 29, 53).

2. The pseudo-Clementine literature, especially the Recognitions of Clement and The Clementine Homilies, two third-century Christian works, are regarded by general scholarly consensus as largely or entirely Jewish-Christian and specifically Ebionite in origin. This can be found in volume 8 of the Ante-Nicene Fathers.

visionary · Oct 23, 2008

The Ebionites were a group in the early Christian church which was "Jewish Christian" in orientation, claiming to be the descendants of the original church, observing the Jewish law as they interpreted it but also following Jesus. All of the sources specifically mentioned above agree that the Ebionites denied the divinity of Jesus and accepted the Jewish law. There is general agreement also that they believed in one God, the creator, thus rejecting the views of Marcion; and further that they rejected Paul.

According to Epiphanius, they rejected orthodox Christian beliefs about the divinity of Jesus, were vegetarians, opposed animal sacrifice, and rejected certain texts in the Jewish scriptures (most especially, those pertaining to animal sacrifice). They were loyal to the Mosaic law, but had an idiosyncratic view of that law. They called themselves Ebionites (based on ebionim, "the poor") because, they said, at the time of the apostles they gave all their possessions to the early church (Acts 4:32-35). The Ebionites claimed to have the biological relatives of Jesus among their own number, described by ancient writers as the "desposynoi" ("those who belong to the master").

visionary · Oct 23, 2008

Robert Eisenman, an independent scholar, notes that more may be at stake than just academic defensiveness. Eisenman notes that many of the names used by the Essenes to refer to themselves -- Zadokim (the Just), Ebionim (the Poor), Nazoreans (the Pure), Hasideans (Zealous for the law), etc. -- are also some of the appellations used by the entity known as the "early Church" or "Jewish-Christians" or "Jerusalem Church."

JacktheCatholic · Oct 23, 2008

visionary said:
Nazarenes, the leadership of the visiting teachers being given to Peter, while James the brother of Jesus was elected Nasi, or president of the Supreme Council, both on account of his kinship to the Messiah and his noted piety." (Schonfield, Hugh (1938). The History of Jewish Christianity From the First to the Twentieth Century. Book out of print, pp. 14-15.)

So all you have is a book that is out of print from 1938?

This could be nothing but conjecture. Consider that there are no surviving documents that would support such a claim even if someone took it seriously. And the teachings about Jesus and Mary were that Jesus is an only child and Mary was perpetually virgin. With 2,000 years of surviving documentation that supports that Mary was perpetually virgin and Jesus was an only child I would think this is the most (if only) plausible answer, theologically speaking of course.

visionary · Oct 23, 2008

The Palestinian historian Hegesippus (ca 90-180 CE) is quoted by the fourth century Church Father Eusebius as describing James the Just this way:

"But James, the brother of the Lord, who, as there were many of his name, was surnamed the Just by all, from the days of our Lord until now, received the government of the assembly with the emissaries. This emissary was holy from his mother's womb; he drank no wine nor strong drink, nor did he eat meat; nor razor touched his head, nor did he anoint himself with oil, and never used a bath [i.e., he did not go to the public warm baths, since we know from other sources that he bathed daily in cold water]. He alone was allowed to enter into the Place of Holiness [the Holy of Holies of the Temple], for he did not wear wool, but linen [the clothing of a High Priest], and he used to enter the Temple alone, and was often found upon his bended knees, interceding for the forgiveness of the people, so that his knees became as callused as a camel's, because of the constant importuning he did and kneeling before God and asking forgiveness for the people. . . . And indeed, on account of his exceeding great piety, he was called the Just [Hebrew tzadik, Righteous One], and Oblias [i.e., "The Wall", meaning "steadfast or just] or Ozleam [i.e., "Protector"] which signifies justice and protection of the people; as the prophets declare concerning him" (Hegesippus in the fifth book of his lost commentaries, quoted by Eusebius; Eccl. Hist. 2:23; 5:6).

visionary · Oct 23, 2008

JacktheCatholic said:
So all you have is a book that is out of print from 1938?

This could be nothing but conjecture. Consider that there are no surviving documents that would support such a claim even if someone took it seriously. And the teachings about Jesus and Mary were that Jesus is an only child and Mary was perpetually virgin. With 2,000 years of surviving documentation that supports that Mary was perpetually virgin and Jesus was an only child I would think this is the most (if only) plausible answer, theologically speaking of course.

Sorry but virgin Mary is conjecture that didn't even start until 900 AD.

visionary · Oct 23, 2008

According to the Gospel of Thomas, after the death of Jesus, leadership of his followers fell to his brother, James: The students said to Y'shua: "We know you will leave us. Who is going to be our leader then?" Y'shua said to them:"No matter where you reside, you are to go to James the Just, for whose sake heaven and earth came into being." (The Gospel of Thomas, saying 12)

LittleLambofJesus · Oct 23, 2008

visionary said:
The Ebionites were a group in the early Christian church which was "Jewish Christian" in orientation, claiming to be the descendants of the original church, observing the Jewish law as they interpreted it but also following Jesus. All of the sources specifically mentioned above agree that the Ebionites denied the divinity of Jesus and accepted the Jewish law. There is general agreement also that they believed in one God, the creator, thus rejecting the views of Marcion; and further that they rejected Paul.

According to Epiphanius, they rejected orthodox Christian beliefs about the divinity of Jesus, were vegetarians, opposed animal sacrifice, and rejected certain texts in the Jewish scriptures (most especially, those pertaining to animal sacrifice). They were loyal to the Mosaic law, but had an idiosyncratic view of that law. They called themselves Ebionites (based on ebionim, "the poor") because, they said, at the time of the apostles they gave all their possessions to the early church (Acts 4:32-35). The Ebionites claimed to have the biological relatives of Jesus among their own number, described by ancient writers as the "desposynoi" ("those who belong to the master").

Greetings.....From what I read on this site, they also view Paul as a False Apostle [much as the Muslims do]

http://www.ebionite.org/

The Ebionite Community is the living continuation of the Jewish religious movement of Jesus. Christianity is the religion of Paul and others, and not part of the biblical faith and revelation of the God of Israel nor is it of Jesus. (Please note that we have used "Jesus" to clarify for our Christian readers. We call him Yeshua or Yahshua, and will use Yeshua from this point on in the site.)

We declare the man Paul of Tarsus, the false teacher against the mark of Covenant and God's Torah, to be outside of the Way taught by Yeshua, the anointed, son of Maria and Yosef. The Ebionite Community is the only real "mission to the gentiles."

http://www.judaismvschristianity.com/paulthe.htm
Paul the False Apostle

visionary · Oct 23, 2008

The leadership role referred to here is explained as that of the first Bishop of the Jersualem church by Eusebius and other second century writers. The Gospel According to the Hebrews, in a story that may also be referred to in 1 Cor. 15:17, also affirms James the Just as the leader of the Nazaereans after the crucifixion:

"Now the Lord, when he had given the linen cloth to the servent of the priest, went to James and appeared to him (for James had sworn that he would not eat bread from that hour wherein he had drunk the Lord's cup until he should see him rise again from among them that sleep), and again after a little, "Bring you," said the Lord, a table and bread", and immediately it is added", "He took bread and blessed and broke and gave it to James the Just and said to him: "My brother, eat your bread, for the son of Man is risen from among them that sleep" (Quoted by Jerome; Of Illustrious Men 2).

visionary · Oct 23, 2008

LittleLambofJesus said:
Greetings.....From what I read on this site, they also view Paul as a False Apostle [much as the Muslims do]

http://www.ebionite.org/

The Ebionite Community is the living continuation of the Jewish religious movement of Jesus. Christianity is the religion of Paul and others, and not part of the biblical faith and revelation of the God of Israel nor is it of Jesus. (Please note that we have used "Jesus" to clarify for our Christian readers. We call him Yeshua or Yahshua, and will use Yeshua from this point on in the site.)

We declare the man Paul of Tarsus, the false teacher against the mark of Covenant and God's Torah, to be outside of the Way taught by Yeshua, the anointed, son of Maria and Yosef. The Ebionite Community is the only real "mission to the gentiles."

http://www.judaismvschristianity.com/paulthe.htm
Paul the False Apostle

You do realise that the Paul was a persecuter.. and not everyone is willing to forgive and forget..

Peter Is Not The Rock!

Senior Member

Coffee drinker

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

Praise be to Jesus Christ. Now and forever.

Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I.

Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I.

Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I.

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I.

Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I.

Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I.

Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I.

Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I.

Praise be to Jesus Christ. Now and forever.

Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I.

Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I.

Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I.

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I.

Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I.

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