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Peter Is Not The Rock!

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LittleLambofJesus

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Kind of like a Harvest?

Matt 13:30 "Suffer-ye! to be together-growing both until the Harvest. And in the time of the Harvest I shall be declaring to the Harvesters/Reapers 'together-collect the darnel and bind ye them! into bundles, toward the to burn them. The yet grain together-bring into the place of Me'

Reve 14:15 and another Messenger came out out of the Sanctuary crying out in a voice, great, to the one sitting on the cloud: "Send! the sickle of thee and reap! that came the hour to reap, that is dried the Harvest of the land. [Joel 3:13/Matt 13:30]
 
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visionary

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IS there prophectic significance in Roman/Rome as the adversary to God's way? Ceasar vs God.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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IS there prophectic significance in Roman/Rome as the adversary to God's way? Ceasar vs God.
Greetings. I view revelation as a type of a change of Priesthoods/Covenants.

But also if you notice in the OC/OT, "israel and judah" were serperate and often came to battle each other. The house/nation of "judah" also had the Priesthood.

Those 10 kings in Rev are interesting as they have NO Kingdom as yet.

Acts 1:6 The-ones indeed then coming together, asked Him saying, `Lord!, if in to-the time, this, you are restoring the Kingdom to the Israel?'

Reve 17:12 And the ten horns which you saw, ten kings are, who any a-Kingdom not-yet received, but authority as kings, one hour they are receiving/ with the wild beast,

Zechariah 8:23 Thus sayeth YHWH-of Hosts: "in-Days, those, which they-shall-take-firm-hold a-hem/wing, Ten Mortals/582 'enowsh, from-all Tongues-of the-Nations.
And-They-take-fast/hold in-hem-of a-Man/0376 'iysh, a-Judean/Y@huwdiy, to-say 'We-are-going with-Thee, that We-hear Elohiym with-Thee'". [Mark 6:56]
 
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Rhamiel

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But also if you notice in the OC/OT, "israel and judah" were serperate and often came to battle each other. The house/nation of "judah" also had the Priesthood.
was Judah and Israel ever reunited? I mean besides being taken over by others, did they ever reunite on their own?
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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was Judah and Israel ever reunited? I mean besides being taken over by others, did they ever reunite on their own?
Greetings. The only way they can reunite is thru the Cross of their Passover Lamb/High Priest, Jesus.

Ezekiel 37:22 And I make them to a-nation, One in land, in mountains of Israel. And a King, One, shall become for all of them to a-King: and not he/they shall be further to two of Nations, and not they shall be divided furthur to two of Kingdoms further

Zephaniah 3:15 YHWH takes away judgements of thee. He makes face-about one being enemy of thee. King of Yisra'el, YHWH in within of thee, not thou shall fear evil further.
 
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Now, let me see if I understand you correctly. You believe that you (personally) as a member of the Church, the body of Christ, are God - the immutable, ineffable, omniscent, omnipresent Creator of the heavens and the earth and the Savior of mankind - God.

Is this a dogmatic ex-cathedra infalliable statement from the Pope or it is merely doctrine that can be ignored or reinvented at some future date?

If you are God (as a member of the Church, Christ's body) then we must prostrate ourselves in abject adoration of You, or you may need to seek the aid of a qualified psychiatrist.
 
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Well, I see I was right, after all. That quote from the New Testament was the best you could come up with. The quotation from the Catholic Catechism was quite innocuous and did not address the allegation that the Church is God and, therefore, worthy of the love of our body, soul, and spirit as commanded in the first commandment.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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I. NAMES AND IMAGES OF THE CHURCH
751 The word "Church" (Latin ecclesia, from the Greek ek-ka-lein, to "call out of") means a convocation or an assembly. It designates the assemblies of the people, usually for a religious purpose.
THe Jewish Synagogues were also assemblies.
Interesting the greek word "gog" in that

Reve 3:9 Behold! I-am-giving out of the synagogue/sun-agwghV <4864> of the Satan, to-the ones saying them-selves Judeans to-be and not they-are, but are falsifying. Behold! I shall be making them that they shall be arriving, and they shall be worshipping before the feet of thee, and they may be knowing that I love thee.

Reve 20:8 and he shall be coming out to deceive the nations, the in the Four Corners of the Land, the Gog/gwg <1136> and Magog/magwg <3098>, to be together-assembling/sun-agagein <4863> (5629) them into the Battle, of which the Number of them as the Sand of the Sea.[Ezekiel 7:1-2]
 
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Anglian

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Dear Beamishboy,
I hope I'm making sense. I didn't have enough sleep last night and I need to go to bed now!!!

Not a great deal, no. You reiterate your view, disparage those which other Churches have held since the beginning, and you evince no understanding at all of Holy Tradition, despite others having tried to explain it to you.

I'd say you need that rest - hope you sleep/slept well.

Peace,

Anglian
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Some will rest well, some will not

Matthew 11:29 "Take! My yoke upon ye, and be learning from Me. That meek am-I and humble to the heart, and ye shall be finding Rest/ana-pausin <372> to the souls of ye"

Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of the tormenting of them is ascending into Ages to-Ages. And not they are having Rest/ana-pausin <372> day and night [Matt 11:29/Hebrew 4:3]
 
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As a fairly new Christian (since 2/07), I have been learning about the Word of God directly - from the Bible. While I do attend a church, I base my beliefs upon what I have read in God's Word, not upon what I am told I should believe. (not to imply than anyone does differently, just stating my methods). I have read multiple translations and nowhere have I found any indication that the rock upon which the Church is built is any other than Christ.

I think that there have been mistranslations of Jesus' conversation with Peter, but Peter himself refers to Christ as the cornerstone as does Scripture repeatedly throughout both the Old and New Testaments.
 
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JacktheCatholic

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Try reading Matthew 16 in Aramaic since that is what it would have been written in originally (or at the very least the language Jesus spoke to the Jews). You will find that Peter and Rock are the same word. Jesus changed Simon's name to Rock much like how God changed Abrahms name to Abraham.
 
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Zoness

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So what are we trying to prove here? The Catholic church was founded by Peter but does that mean that there is no salvation outside of the Catholic church just because other churches are not in apostolic succeession? Curious as to what you guys think on the matter.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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So why would only that part be in Aramaic?

http://www.olivetree.com/cgi-bin/EnglishBible.htm

Matt 16:18 `And I yet to thee am saying, that thou art Peter, and upon this/tauth <3778>, the rock/petra <4073> I shall be building of Me the 0ut-called, and gates of Hades not shall be prevailing of her;

petra <4073> Used 4 times in NC/NT Matt 16:18, Matt 27:60, 1 Corin 10:4, 1 Peter 2:8

Hebrew 11:2 For in this/tauth <3778> were testified to the Elders/presbuteroi 3 To Faith we are apprehending...........
 
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JacktheCatholic

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The Catholic Church was founded by Jesus. This is because the church that Jesus started with the Apsotles came to be called Catholic much as children of God came to become called Christian.

What I am saying is that Jesus would have spoke in Aramaic and when he changed Simon's name in Matthew 16 he changed it to rock and then said he was going to build His church on that rock. This is as it was taught by the Apostles and how those taught by the Apsotles wrote about it. To deny Peter as the rock is to deny Jesus. But I know many have received false teachings from ignorant teachers or wolves.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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I deny Peter as that rock. Here I come HELL!!!!

1 John 2:22 Who-any is the Falsifier except the one denying/arnou-menoV <720> (5740) that Jesus not is the Christ, this-one is the anti-christ/anti-cristoV <500>, the one denying/arnou-menoV <720> (5740) the Father and the Son.

Reve 5:6 And I saw and behold! in midst of the throne and of the four living-ones and in midst of the elders a lamb-kin/arnion <721> standing, as having been slaughtered

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7245442
The "lambkin" in Revelation and John 21 question
 
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JacktheCatholic

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You deny Jesus and the authors of the scriptures. You do not deny me. I take no offense at your snide remark. I love you still and will pray for your conversion of heart. God's mercy is infinite as He is and he will forgive any crime if you ask. Isn't that awesome?
 
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Well, at least I am not the only one. Glad to join you, LLoJ.
 
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JacktheCatholic

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'

Regarding Aramaic I am quoting a source for you and anyone else interested. There will be a link to the source at the end.

QUOTE

Aramaic in the New Testament


"We know that Jesus spoke Aramaic because some of his words are preserved for us in the Gospels. Look at Matthew 27:46, where he says from the cross, ‘Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?’ That isn’t Greek; it’s Aramaic, and it means, ‘My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?’

"What’s more," I said, "in Paul’s epistles—four times in Galatians and four times in 1 Corinthians—we have the Aramaic form of Simon’s new name preserved for us. In our English Bibles it comes out as Cephas. That isn’t Greek. That’s a transliteration of the Aramaic word Kepha (rendered as Kephas in its Hellenistic form).

"And what does Kepha mean? It means a rock, the same as petra. (It doesn’t mean a little stone or a pebble. What Jesus said to Simon in Matthew 16:18 was this: ‘You are Kepha, and on this kepha I will build my Church.’

"When you understand what the Aramaic says, you see that Jesus was equating Simon and the rock; he wasn’t contrasting them. We see this vividly in some modern English translations, which render the verse this way: ‘You are Rock, and upon this rock I will build my church.’ In French one word, pierre, has always been used both for Simon’s new name and for the rock."

For a few moments the missionary seemed stumped. It was obvious he had never heard such a rejoinder. His brow was knit in thought as he tried to come up with a counter. Then it occurred to him.

"Wait a second," he said. "If kepha means the same as petra, why don’t we read in the Greek, ‘You are Petra, and on this petra I will build my Church’? Why, for Simon’s new name, does Matthew use a Greek word, Petros, which means something quite different from petra?"

"Because he had no choice," I said. "Greek and Aramaic have different grammatical structures. In Aramaic you can use kepha in both places in Matthew 16:18. In Greek you encounter a problem arising from the fact that nouns take differing gender endings.

"You have masculine, feminine, and neuter nouns. The Greek word petra is feminine. You can use it in the second half of Matthew 16:18 without any trouble. But you can’t use it as Simon’s new name, because you can’t give a man a feminine name—at least back then you couldn’t. You have to change the ending of the noun to make it masculine. When you do that, you get Petros, which was an already-existing word meaning rock.

"I admit that’s an imperfect rendering of the Aramaic; you lose part of the play on words. In English, where we have ‘Peter’ and ‘rock,’ you lose all of it. But that’s the best you can do in Greek."

Beyond the grammatical evidence, the structure of the narrative does not allow for a downplaying of Peter’s role in the Church. Look at the way Matthew 16:15-19 is structured. After Peter gives a confession about the identity of Jesus, the Lord does the same in return for Peter. Jesus does not say, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. And I tell you, you are an insignificant pebble and on this rock I will build my Church. . . . I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven." Jesus is giving Peter a three-fold blessing, including the gift of the keys to the kingdom, not undermining his authority. To say that Jesus is downplaying Peter flies in the face of the context. Jesus is installing Peter as a form of chief steward or prime minister under the King of Kings by giving him the keys to the kingdom. As can be seen in Isaiah 22:22, kings in the Old Testament appointed a chief steward to serve under them in a position of great authority to rule over the inhabitants of the kingdom. Jesus quotes almost verbatum from this passage in Isaiah, and so it is clear what he has in mind. He is raising Peter up as a father figure to the household of faith (Is. 22:21), to lead them and guide the flock (John 21:15-17). This authority of the prime minister under the king was passed on from one man to another down through the ages by the giving of the keys, which were worn on the shoulder as a sign of authority. Likewise, the authority of Peter has been passed down for 2000 years by means of the papacy.

http://www.catholic.com/library/Peter_the_Rock.asp
 
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JacktheCatholic

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Well, at least I am not the only one. Glad to join you, LLoJ.

You think Hell is a joking matter?

God allowed three children to see a short vision of Hell and this is what they said they saw:

Our Lady showed us a great sea of fire which seemed to be under the earth. Plunged in this fire were demons and souls in human form, like transparent burning embers, all blackened or burnished bronze, floating about in the conflagration, now raised into the air by the flames that issued from within themselves together with great clouds of smoke, now falling back on every side like sparks in a huge fire, without weight or equilibrium, and amid shrieks and groans of pain and despair, which horrified us and made us tremble with fear. The demons could be distinguished by their terrifying and repulsive likeness to frightful and unknown animals, all black and transparent. This vision lasted but an instant. How can we ever be grateful enough to our kind heavenly Mother, who had already prepared us by promising, in the first Apparition, to take us to heaven. Otherwise, I think we would have died of fear and terror.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Secrets_of_Fatima
 
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