Peter and the Keys, Catholicism and the Pope

NewMan99 said:

For those who are interested why the terms Romanist and Papist are offensive, see here:

Biblical Evidence for Catholicism

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Sorry, if it's too convoluted for you to explain in simple terms, I don't have time. I'll just take you at your word that those terms offend you. I don't use them anyway.

I'm just of the mind that as Christians we should turn the other cheek. And, just as a general note, it is best not to let your foes know what gets to you--for obvious reasons.

1. Why do those terms offend you?

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They do not offend just me - they are considered offensive by the vast majority of all Catholics. Just like the "n" word is offensive to the vast majority of people of color (as it is to me too). Words mean things.

2. As a Catholic who is so easily offended,

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I am not easily offended at all. I am actually very thick-skinned. But that doesn't mean we should not be civil with each other. If a person of color objects to the use of a racial slur, would you also accuse them of being "easily offended"? Why do you attempt to defend the indefensible?

who asserts that a particular group of people should not converse with Catholics,

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What I am saying is that if you can't play nice with others, then you should not play at all. Using an offensive slur is not playing nice. And if you don't know that it is a slur in the first place, then you run the risk of hurting others (unintentionally) like a bull in a china shop. It is better to learn something about the people you are trying to converse with first before you put your foot in your mouth.

what business do you have in this forum conversing with a group of people your faith has anathematized,

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Anathematizations apply to very few people on this board. First of all, you have to already be a Catholic in communion with the Church, and you have to knowingly, willfully, and obstinantly disobey the Church before any level of culpability is applied. Is that you? I highly doubt it. Who is being easily offended now?

and at best refers to us as "separated bretheren?"

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That is not a negative term. It acknowledges a reality: we are not in full communion, but we are still brethren who are imperfectly joined due to our shared union with the grace of Christ. But if you don't want to be called that - fine. I wouldn't hold it against you or presume to tell you what you should find offensive or not.

And, I'm sure you wouldn't understand why a person not of your faith would be offended by being labeled "Protestant" instead of their particular faith like Baptist, Methodist, Lutheran.

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Actually I do understand. I spent over 40 years of my life as a Methodist...with a very large extended family of "Bible Christian" Evangelicals. I get it. And whenever someone says they don't like the term Protestant - I am more than happy to accomodate their request and I don't try to make them feel badly for it.

I have my beliefs and opinions as do you, sorry if you find them offensive.

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I am not offended by your beliefs or opinions. But I am offended when people use religious slurs...words that are commonly known to be slurs...and I should not be forced to permit others to use them in my presence - especially at a place with a stated mission of Christian ecumenism.

Oh, and BTW, I've done my homework, lot's and lot's of it.

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If you have done your homework, then why are you unaware that those words are offensive to Catholics???

You know, if that's where we wanted to be, that's where we'd be. If that was the type of conversing we wanted to participate in, that's where we'd be.

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I wasn't suggesting that anyone go to those places to participate...I suggested that if you go there you will see that "frothing-at-the-mouth" sort of anti-Catholics use those words all the time - and they use them as weapons because they know how hateful those words are...just like people in the KKK will intentionally use racial slurs in public.

Have you ever visited OBOB?

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What do you think? Of course I have. I spent a year as the Catholic Affairs Director when Erwin owned this board.

Because, we are often mocked and scoffed at there. (Or there was a day. Don't know about now. I quit visiting the forum when my blood pressure started shooting up.)

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OBOB members are supposed to be held to the same standards as any other Congregational Forum. If they use a slur against another group of people, then report it. And, btw, there are plenty of hateful things said against Catholicism in almost every other forum at CF. Intentional use of slurs should be stopped across-the-board.

Why?

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Why are words like "Romish" considered a slur by Catholics? I thought you did your homework. If you did - you would know the answer to that question. The short answer is that it is commonly intended as an insult by the very people who most often use it. Why is the "n" word considered a slur? Because it is commonly intended as an insult by the very people who most often use it. When people who are known rabid bigots (of any variety, whether it be racial or religious or whatever) use certain terms when referring to those they despise...and when the people who are objects of that derision never ever use those terms when speaking of themselves...it's a pretty good clue that the bigotted person is using terms that are, objectively speaking, offensive slurs. And just to be clear here...I am just speaking IN GENERAL - I am NOT calling anyone in this thread a bigot.

So, then have you completely stopped using the term Protestant?

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That depends on who I am talking to. There are plenty of people who PREFER to be called Protestant. To most people in the Reformed category the word is considered perfectly fine. If that is what they want to be called - I will call them that. If someone dislikes the term - I will never call them that. I have ZERO problem with people telling me what they prefer to be called. In fact, I prefer it when they tell me how best to address them in a way that they will find respectful. Why should I presume to tell others what they should or should not find offensive or what they should or should not call themselves?

If one is offended, then by your logic as you assert about yourself and the rest of the Catholic Church, all are most likely offended.

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Not at all. Catholics are one group - so it is natural that "all" Catholics would be offended by terms that are COMMONLY known to be religious slurs used as weapons by rabid anti-Catholics.

But non-Catholic Christians (whether you call them Protestant or not) are not one group...they are diverse and distinct. So what is offensive to one group may be acceptable to another group. And if I know that one group has a preference for what they want to be called - then I will gladly accept their wishes without problem.

What is so wrong with being respectful?

And, why in the world is the word "popish" offensive?

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Why is the "n" word offensive?

Anathematizations apply to very few people on this board. First of all, you have to already be a Catholic in communion with the Church, and you have to knowingly, willfully, and obstinantly disobey the Church before any level of culpability is applied. Is that you? I highly doubt it. Who is being easily offended now?

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Can we literally anathematize ourselves?

Acts 23:14 Who-any toward coming to the Chief-priests and to the Elders say "to-anathema/anaqemati <331> we anathematize/aneqematisamen <332> (5656) ourselves of no yet nothing to taste till of which we may be killing the Paul.

Reve 22:3 and every anathema/kat-anaqema <2652> not shall be still. And the throne of the God/YHWH and of the Lamb-kin/Word in Her shall be, and His bond-servants shall be offering divine-service to Him.

I'll just take you at your word that those terms offend you.

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It isn't just me. They are slurs that offend almost all Catholics...just like the "n" word is offensive to people of color.

I don't use them anyway.

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Good. Thank you for that.

I'm just of the mind that as Christians we should turn the other cheek.

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And if you read back just a little bit you will see that I forgave Standing Up for his use of the word Romish. He was unaware it was an offensive term. He retracted it. He apologized. He was a gentleman about it. He is forgiven.

CJ (and now you), on the other hand, defended the use of the term and condescendingly told me Catholics don't have the right to be offended by a term that is very commonly used derisively by rabid anti-Catholics. Do you defend the public or private use of the "n" word too? If not, why not?

And, just as a general note, it is best not to let your foes know what gets to you--for obvious reasons.

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#1 - I don't view others in this thread as "foes". The conversation has been, for the most part, pretty civil.

#2 - When people are seemingly unaware that a given term is, in fact, unacceptable, don't I have the obligation to let them know?

#3 - Would you make the same comment to someone who objects to being called a "n" word?

#3 - Would you make the same comment to someone who objects to being called a "n" word?

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How do non-RC Christians feel about being called "Protestants".....

Can we literally anathematize ourselves?

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Canonically - no.

In a sense, though, a person who is willfully disobedient to the teachings of the Church they belong to and gave an oath to obey...they have then done it to themselves.

LittleLambofJesus said:

How do non-RC Christians feel about being called "Protestants".....

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You would have ask them on an individual basis. When I was a Methodist I considered myself a Protestant...but my Evangelical relatives never called themselves Protestant.

Protestant is a derrogation of Reformed, but like the "n" word, it has become a term of endearment for many of us who are are aware of the price of our freedom.

Rick Otto said:

Protestant is a derrogation of Reformed, but like the "n" word, it has become a term of endearment for many of us who are are aware of the price of our freedom.

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Rotherham) Isaiah 58:6 Is not, this, the fast that I must ever choose--To unbind the tight cords of lawlessness, To unloose the bands of the yoke,--and To let the crushed go free, and That every yoke, ye tear off?

Rick Otto said:

Protestant is a derrogation of Reformed, but like the "n" word, it has become a term of endearment for many of us who are are aware of the price of our freedom.

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Who were the colonial settler's escaping religious persecution from in England to have Freedom of Religion?

Trento said:

Some Reformed are Proud to be Protestant.

Parchment and Pen » Why I am Proud to be a Protestant

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And some Catholics like to be called papists and romish.


Soooo.. how bout we all quit whining.

sunlover1 said:

And some Catholics like to be called papists and romish.


Soooo.. how bout we all quit whining.

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No, Sunlover... almost NO Catholics like to be called those insulting terms - ESPECIALLY when non-Catholics use it - and EVEN MORE when the words are used an intentional insults. Don't you "get" the tongue-in-cheek nature of those blogs?

Edited to add: I know people of color who use the "n" word too when they talk to each other...but that doesn't excuse its use ESPECIALLY when it is used by other races. The "n" word is still a disgusting hateful word, objectively speaking, and has no place in civil discourse among inter-racial dialog. The same principle applies here.

Good grief, why should anyone be expected to just be quiet when others use hate words against them?

It is NOT whining to object to a slur. I expect better than that from people who call themselves Christian.

I am appalled at the number of people who seem to resent it when someone asks them not to use a slur. Once again we have people PRESUMING to tell others what they should find offensive or not. That's easy for them to say when THEY are not the ones on the receieving end of a slur. Walk a mile in my shoes first.

boswd said:

Who were the colonial settler's escaping religious persecution from in England to have Freedom of Religion?

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The Church of England had become almost ecclesiologicaly imperialist as the RC. The tradition of Christian-on-Christian violence got new momentum from the monarchy.

sunlover1 said:

And some Catholics like to be called papists and romish.


Soooo.. how bout we all quit whining.

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Hmmm.......Is that person a RC? Like that cartoon on that site

edit to add....If any RCs feel this post is offensive, just say so and I will delete it.....Thanks.

Romish Papist's Details

Romish Papist's Schools

Jesuit High School

Romish Papist's Companies

NewMan99 said:

Josiah said:

Some of MY thoughts....



1. See post 467, 473, 474



2. I think that offense can be taken where obviously none is implied. Remember that Lutheran, Methodist, Baptist - all these were originally terms of derision. Even Protestant was, in many cases, an early term of derision for those excommunicated from The Catholic Church. Why, as one who is not registered in a parish of your ____________, I CAN find it offensive that you call me a non-catholic (which means non-Christian) but I know what you mean and that you don't mean it as an offense, thus while I'd have CAUSE to be offended, I guess, I find such inappropriate. Even when Protestant is aimed at me, hey, I never protested anything - and still don't! I regard your ___________ as valid, good and hold it in very high esteem; I regard it, its ministers and ministries as valid and good; I regard nothing it officially teaches as unbiblical or heretical; I regard all in it as my FULL, UNseparated and EQUAL brothers and sisters in Christ in every sense; and I pray DAILY and personally and specifically for God's rich blessings to it, its ministers and its Holy Father. When a Catholic can say the same thing about me and my ___________, then we can talk about "offense" and who is being embracing and who is being excluding.


3. I know of least one Orthodox poster, quite active here, who refers to your _________________ as "Rome." And he insists that no Catholic has ever in his life been the least bit offended by that. Well, Rome is the same word as two of the things you say YOU are offended by. And how can you defend all the things you said are true about the Papacy and be offended by legit English varients of that word?


4. Inter____________ talks are NOT easy! It takes a LOT of work, clarity and patience!!!! A LOT. And sometimes it takes laying aside hyper-sensitivities. You know, most of the world knows your _____________ as "The Roman Catholic Church." And, friend and respected brother, there's no offense meant or implied. So none should be taken.


Let's see if we can get back to the topic, when is the Papacy (NO OFFENSE MEANT BY THAT!) of your ________________.


.

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CJ,

If a person doesn't know that the words "Romish" "Romanist" "Popish" etc... are hightly offensive to ALL Catholics (not just me) - then this person has NO BUSINESS talking to Catholics. They need to do their homework first.

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... and yet YOU use the terms "pope" and "papacy" which are just other English forms of the words you decry.

... and look at your post # 467. Then read my reply in # 473 and your reply in #474. Friend, perhaps it would be good to consider whether you might be taking offense where not only none is intended but perhaps even where you know none is intended? Read those 3 posts. Again, if you did already. Just a thought to consider....


Friend, one can take offense at ANYTHING - and some will. IMHO, such is usually an evasion, diversion technique although certainly not in your case.

Look - do yourself a favor...go to ANY rabid anti-Catholic website you want. There are plenty to choose from. By "rabid" I mean the frothing-at-the-mouth variety. Go to Jack Chick. Dave Hunt. Robert Zins. You know the list.

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Never been to any of those site, and never will.

I have been to some Catholic sites that were quite disparaging toward we rebellious apostate folks.

But, IMHO, to so loudly cry about variations of terms you yourself use, or that Orthodox also use, seems fruitless to our discussion. Or to decry a term like "denomination" that is a very, very common term used in a very positive, embracing, celebrative way AS I USE IT (and you KNOW that) ... well, I don't know what's your point.


And, friend and respected brother, note that a lot of terms used - Lutheran, Baptist, Methodist, Protestant and many more - were once terms of derision and yet I don't see Lutherans up in arms about the term (in fact, we've embraced it). And I HOPE you never call a follower of the LDS Church a "Mormon" even though most LDS have long since stopped being offended by that term (it's even used in all its advertising these days).

Nonsense - it does not mean non-Christian.

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As you well know, "catholic" is an ancient adjective meaning "universal, whole, general, embracing." To say that one is a non-catholic is to say he/she is not a part of the one holy catholic church - and thus not Christian. I know that, you know that. Do I get all passionately offended when I'm called a "non-Catholic?" Not at all. WHY? Because I know that while on the surface of such, it is VERY condemning, I KNOW it's not meant that way. The person is simply indicating that I'm not in 100% docilic agreement with all 2,865 points of the latest RCC Catechism as the RCC's Magisterium currently interprets such and/or am not officially registered in a congregation legally affiliated with the RCC ____________. No offense is implied, so none is taken. It's as simple as that. And, frankly, I always give the benefit of the doubt when I don't know how its meant. It's called Christian charity.

Well of course not. The word Rome or Roman is not offensive. Did I ever say that it was? I was talking about Romish, Romanist, Popish, etc...

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... um, Pope, Popish are just forms of the same word. As is Rome, Roman, Romish, and Romanist. Maybe nothing was meant to be offensive - no more than "non-catholic" or "Lutheran?" Generally, I'm not so hyper-sensitive or obsessed with Political Correctness in these discussions; usually I can apply some Christian charity and "put the best construction on things" as the Catholic Catechism teaches us to do for the Commandment, "Do not lie." But that's just me. I'd rather discuss the issue and TRY to work toward an advanced mutual understanding that try to enforce my version of PCism, but again, that's just me. But yes, I DO avoid terms that I'm AWARE are offensive. I don't speak of anyone as being non-catholic or apostate or separated or outside the church, for example - nothing that could imply that they are not fully Christian. In fact, I try to include that I regard them as my brother/sister, equally a part of the church, unseparated, etc. And, I, as you know, I'm VERY much on public record that I regard the RC _________ as good and valid and that I hold such in very high esteem - thankful for all the rich blessings I received there; that I regard its ministers and ministries as valid; that I regard nothing it officially teaches as unbiblical; that I regard all believers in it as my FULL and UNseparated and EQUAL brothers and sisters in Christ and fully members of the one holy catholic church - the communion of saints; that I pray passionately, fervently and daily for God's richest blessings to it, its ministers and ministries and its Holy Father. I'm on record here at CF for all that - and have been for approaching 4 years. And you know that. ALL of that. So, clearly, I'm on record for saying affirming things about your ___________, things I don't think you'd publicly state about me or my _________________.

NewMan99 said:

Rather than being humble, CJ, and turning this into a learning moment...to better understand how others feel - you instead imprudently and unwisely presume to defend the indefensible.

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Friend, brother and respected Catholic apologist, I haven't defended anyone or anything. I've ONLY said that we should not ASSUME offense with a hyper-sensitivity and radical Political Correctness; and I've suggested that sometimes, questionable things might be best to regard as your Catechism tells us to do - by placing the best construction on things in Christian charity: and moving on.

Friend, unseparated brother, IMHO, there is GREAT opportunity here at CF!!!!! Enormous opportunity!!!! We can come together - openly, honestly, freely - and talk face to face. We have a change here to correct hundreds of years of misunderstandings by talking to each other rather than about each other. YES, we may have to get past terms that at least centuries ago were "loaded terms." And YES, we WILL have to work (w.o.r.k.) hard. And YES, we will have to be patient! ANYTHING of merit requires such. But I also think it requires a the poster to be sensitive to terms that may derail things BUT EQUALLY it requires the reader to not be hyper-sensitive, assumptive, and so obsessed with political correctness that we just can't make progress.

Freind, in my years here at CF, I have gotten PM's from (let's leave that blank) that SHOCKED me, SHOCKED ME that ANY Christian would say such things to or about me. I reported none of them. Sometimes, you just need to move on - because the goal of CF is more important than my feelings. But that's just me.


I recall my mother mentioning that for YEARS, it was completely unacceptable to refer to those descendents who lived in the Americas in pre-Columbian times as "Indians." In the school district here, at one time, using that word in reference to such got you suspended for the day! The local high school could still be the "Warriors" but it had to be Native American Warriors (the school was since required to change their mascot and name, they are now the Pioneers). But, as she tells it, the moment the tribes around here started opening up casinos, THEY called them "Indian casinos." Go figure. She tells me that when she was a little girl, to call a "Colored Person" "black" was highly offensive, then, suddenly, to call them a "Colored Person" was highly offensive and they were "proud to be Black." You know, that's the problem with Political Correctness, IMHO. Gotta keep your daily scorecard cuz it constantly changes, and what offends one may be the desired term for another - and vise versa. MAYBE (just maybe - just something to consider, that's all) MAYBE we all should be just a little just less hyper-sensitive. ESPECIALLY here, because we have more important things to accomplish here than get offended. IMHO.

Good grief, CJ. Why can't you even understand the most simple of things?

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I never said it was; I said that Pope, papacy, papistical, papal, etc. are all variations of the same word - a word you use. That's what I said.


Friend, I don't think I've used offensive language - so I'm not sure why you are condemning ME so much here. I've told you - publicly and repeatedly - what my view is of you and the RCC. And I don't think you can or will say the same in return for me and my _____________. So, why I'm taking the bashing here, I just don't know.

And I told you what I meant by the very common theological term "denomination." And that I use the term in a very positive, embracing, celebrative way. You KNOW that, because I've told you repeatedly and you noted that you understood how I meant it - AND YET you CHOSE to get so insulted and angry, in spite of knowing no offensive was remotely implied (just the opposite). MAYBE it would be good to just ponder that, and how that MIGHT related a tad to the discussion here????? MAYBE?????


Again, I don't think I've used offensive words toward you or Catholicism. Ever. And yet, you CHOSE to take offensive at "denomination" in spite of KNOWING nothing offensive was meant or implied; you earlier took offensive at my reference to "The Bishop of the Diocese of Rome" and rebuked me for it, in spite of there being NOTHING REMOTELY to suggest I meant any offense or anything negative whatsoever.

My full brother in Christ, you are a Catholic apologist. Your ministry (if I correctly understand) is to explain Catholicism to others in convincing ways. I honor and respect that, because I honor and respect Catholicism. But MAYBE (just a thought) that's a bigger assignment than allowing terms like "Papal" or "Rome" or "denomination" or "diocese" to derail conversations?????? Just a tiny thought....


I'm going to be blunt here, but IMHO, it needs to be said. One of my frustrations during all my time here is this defensiveness of Catholics toward Protestants that IMHO is at times without justification and at time is not equally applied. There seems to be a "persecution complex" among some of our Catholic brothers and sisters here at CF, it seems to me, and it's harming the openness of our discussions and the ability to advance mutual understanding. Again, I AM ON RECORD (repeatedly and for years) for my stand vis-a-vis the Catholic Church and I'm amazed you'd be so critical of me for it. I have NEVER purposely said ANYTHING derogatory toward the RCC (although, at times, IN SPITE OF my correcting such, been told I'm wrong and that I DID mean to say something offensive - I jsut didn't know I did, but that's moot because offensive is in the eye of the beholder and how it was intended is moot). Frustrating....


Again, I said NOTHING negative toward the RCC - in this thread or ANYWHERE at CF, ever. My view is what it is, and it's a LOT more positive than Catholics will say to or about me and the denomination that my congregation belongs to. I don't use derogatory terms for anyone here - including you, my friend, unseparated brother and respected apologist. And I defended NO ONE for anything. My point was and is this: perhaps, for the sake of more important things, we can follow the advice of your Catechism, apply some Christian charity, lay aside the ASSUMPTIONS and PC'ism, move forward - for the sake of unity???????????


JUST a tiny thought; that's all. For ALL of us to ponder (and may it begin with me).



Thank you, my brother.


Pax!









.

CJ,

LISTEN FOR ONCE!!!

Stop rationalizing or defending the use of a SLUR. Stop telling me how I should feel.

These are COMMONLY REGARDED AS SLURS BY CATHOLICS and have been considered as such for OVER A CENTURY. What don't you get???

Do you use the "n" word? Yes or no? If not why not? Is there a principle involved in your decision to not use the word (I am assuming for the sake of argument that you do not use the word)? Why is that principle ANY DIFFERENT than the principle involved here with regard to terms that are commonly regarded as RELIGOUS slurs? Or is just okay to use slurs against Catholics but not against difference races?

This is NOT "hyper-sensitivity" or "radical political correctness" for crying out loud. It's called COMMON DECENCY and respect for the wishes of others.

BTW - I am partly Native American (so is Debbie). And, while the word "Indian" does not bother me, I know it does bother some. So I respect that. It is not my place to tell them how they should feel. But the word Indian is also commonly used by Native Americans and is likewise in common usage throughout our country and culture. But the words Romish, etc...are NEVER used by Catholics (except in a satrical tongue-in-cheek context). There is a really big difference between Indian and Romish (and I am both) so don't even go there.

I plan to ignore anything else you say to me for now - so don't even bother. Come back to me when you finally get it.

Standing Up,

I have changed my mind about not engaging in conversation with you. You behaved with Christian charity and humbleness. You have more than earned my respect, even if I am quite sure we will disagree. I will respond to your "shameless bump" fairly soon. I am putting the finishing touches on something else for Mike, but then will turn my attention back to you. I am done talking to people who seem to think using religious slurs are just fine. You "get it" - thanks.

NewMan99 said:

No, Sunlover... almost NO Catholics like to be called those insulting terms - ESPECIALLY when non-Catholics use it - and EVEN MORE when the words are used an intentional insults. Don't you "get" the tongue-in-cheek nature of those blogs?

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No I guess I didnt. There was nothing there that would lead me to see it that
way. If one is a papist and is zealous of the things of Roman Catholicism,
I dont see why one wouldnt want to proclaim it loudly, just as trento
suggested about protestants.
If I were a protestant, I'd be proud to call myself just that.

Good grief, why should anyone be expected to just be quiet when others use hate words against them?

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I didnt say that they should.

Try posting as a protestant, the inferior faith.
We are our own popes., we disregard 'those who
gave us the bible, the only true church etc.
Basically I guess that makes us bastard children
If i had a nickle for every time someones said that junk.

It's life as we know it here. It doesnt bother me unless
it's someone that i am close to. Then I let them know
through pm or rep message, (You know who you are )
that they said something hurtful.

Standing up doesnt seem the type to hurl insults Newman.
In fact, I thought that he was Catholic before this week.


Either way, I was merely answering trento in kind.
What you do is your business.

Sigh!!!