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Perverted homosexual arguments

davedjy

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Give reasons as to why you are allowed to touch!!! Give reasons as to why you are allowed to drive a car!!!!!!
Give reasons as to why you are allowed to use a computer!!!
It's not in the Bible, so you must not be allowed to do it!!!! = same logic

human knowledge and human wisdom? no! refuting ridiculous arguments that God would ever condemn a loving relationship with another adult human. Let's not forget as I mentioned, that this type of a relationship wasn't even recongized till 1869...LONG after the Bible was written. So what was there to condemn? Historical context wouldn'tve been able to refute such a relationship... God allows polygamy in Exodus, yet you seem not be concerned with that, just pointing out something you see as a sin, attached to an orientation that cannot be changed.
 
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davedjy

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Excellent post, I agree.

Everyone seems so arrogant in their understanding that "you should be judged because the way I see the Bible is the only way that it could possibly be!!!!"
 
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Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president
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1 Cor 6:9-10 is a poor translation of an unknown word,

[size=+1]αρσενοκοιτης[/size] what the early church called “SODOMY," lust,” “impurity,” “works of the flesh,” “carnal,” “lawless intercourse,” “ shameless,” “burning with insane love for boys,” “ licentiousness,” “co-habitors with males,” “lusters after mankind”, etc. See this post for specific references http://www.christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=32635683&postcount=82


No, NONE, NADA historical data. There are no examples of a loving monogamous relationship between a man and his goat either but bestiality is STILL condemned in the next verse.
 
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kiwimac

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Perhaps this article will help:

 
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UberLutheran

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Why, yes. All the time, as a matter of fact.

In fact, it's just amazing all the places God can (and will) be found once we get our heads out of a book!

FYI: The Gospels (and Acts 1) are an account of Jesus Christ. Luke is the only Gospel which attempts anything at a historical account of Jesus' life.
 
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Gusoceros

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Let me make sure I am understanding you- are you saying that you encounter God in action in contradiction to Holy Scriptures all the time (which is what Im understanding outside the Scriptures to mean), and that the Holy Scriptures should be relegated to merely the Gospels?

G
 
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davedjy

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Again, this proves nothing except someone's "translation" of something again. The Scholars are not agreed, but you think they are because of your little text arguments you bring in here. Again, INCONSISTENT translations between 1 Timothy 1:10 and 1 Cor 6:9-10.

There was no such thing as "co-habitors with males", these definitions are crap at best, I don't know why you think they suffice, THEY DON'T.
 
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Full_Moon

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So you are saying you don't believe in the Holy Spirit's interpretation? You don't believe that God can open our eyes and the scriptures to them?

If I were you, only awknowledging the matereal and not the spiritual of the bible, then I would toss it in the garbage and make my own religion up. After all, if it is just a book written by men 2000 + years ago, what good is it to us now?

Yet if it is a true account of God and if God does testify through His Holy Scriptures, then what you say is missing the point. Scripture itself condemns relying on human wisdom thoughout. If you don't believe in the Holy Spirit, written about throughout scripture, then why are you discussing God's morality with me?
 
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UberLutheran

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Oh, horrors!

I never said anything about the Holy Scriptures being relegated to merely the Gospels -- though there is quite a bit of excellent theology to be found in Romans, Galatians and Ephesians if we can get Christian conservatives to stop using just three short sections out of each epistle in order to condemn gays and lesbians, and conveniently overlooking the rest of the contents of those epistles!

I'm saying that while the Bible is the revelation about God's interaction with us from about -3000 BC to 90 CE, God is still bigger than the Bible and it's possible that God (being God) might even choose to do something which is outside the Bible and even without first checking with Christian conservatives to see if it was OK with them if God chose to do something!

I see God working through other people -- INCLUDING liberals, INCLUDING Muslims, INCLUDING agnostics and atheists, INCLUDING gays and lesbians -- whether or not Christian conservatives have given God their stamp of approval on whether He may or may not use these people; and I see God working through circumstances and situations -- even if many Christian conservatives believe that New Orleans brought the destruction of Hurricane Katrina on itself for its "decadent and sinful lifestyle", even if many Christian conservatives believe that Southeast Asia brought the tsunami upon itself for the "sin" of worshipping Allah.

In fact, the more I see many conservative Christians in action, the less I really care what they think. They point their fingers at liberals, gays, lesbians and others and cluck about "THOSE people have surely missed the mark" while they, themselves are completely unaware that not only have they missed the mark but are aiming in the wrong direction!
 
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Gusoceros

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I am in almost 100% agreement. I do not believe it is possible that God would contradict Himself. I also believe you paint with an erroneous generalization about Christian conservatives- I am one, and I do not believe according to any of the examples you cited.

Those aside, we pretty much agree.

G
 
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Full_Moon

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So basically I hear you saying that God, in the bible, was unaware of our understanding of homosexuality. Yet I see verses speaking of men lusting one another. I see verses of men having sex with one another. Of course I don't condemn loving relationships between two of the same sex, but why do you have to chuck your dick into someone in order to love them?

I entirely disagree with the notion that homosexuality, or understanding it, is new.

Men have been burning with sexual passion for one another for as long as we can remember. The bible is quite clear in acknowledging this also. So whatever you think is new about our understanding, I'm not seeing it.

Then I hear you using polygamy in exodus to argue against God's Law in the bible.... I'll give you a hint for this debate: If you reject scriptural authority then do so out-right! If you reject biblical law then just say so.

As I was telling my wife, I believe the only way for a "Christian" to endorse homosexual acts is to completely reject the authority of scripture. Perhaps you can explain why you put so much effort into arguing with scripture if you don't accept it as authoritative?

As far as your argument of historical context, you have failed to show anything new about our understanding. Saying it is new is not reasoning.

P.S. I have no need to give reasons for driving a car etc. Nor did I ever say that if it's not in the bible it is not ok. Nor did I say that if it's not in the bible then it is ok. Continue making a point with this logic if you want but I think you know where it will end up.

Cheers man.
 
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davedjy

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Burning with sexual passion or simply "attraction" that the Bible doesn't even remotely ever bring up?

Your interetation is that it rejects the authority of Scripture, but that doesn't mean that it does...just in your eyes it does.

I never said Scripture isn't authorative, we just have a different VIEW of the Scripture. 28 denominations "reject" Scripture???? NO, just have a different intepretation of what was being said...

Read this page, to see another view on the subject:

http://www.gaychristian.net/justins_view.php
 
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Full_Moon

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Dave, you are not entertaining me

Continue to make your point because you've started both your arguments already. What new thing have 'we discovered' about homosexual acts other than the attraction and act?

As far as your interpretation, it seems you take 'Do not lie with another man as one lies with a woman' to mean 'It is ok to lie with another man as one lies with a woman if you want to'. Seems quite silly to me.
 
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davedjy

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Just like you are most certainly wearing clothing of mixed fabrics, or come in contact with a footbal (pig skin is an abomination in Leviticus 20). WE DON'T FOLLOW THE OLD LEVITICUS LAWS ANYMORE. If you take this out of there, you are cherry picking.
 
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Full_Moon

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You have got to be kidding me.

So I guess the ten commandments are out, murder all you want, worship whicher god.

Also, levitical, sexual morality of course....

Basically I now hear you saying there is no right and wrong. If God's Law was recorded in Leviticus and you now say we don't follow it anymore, then what I hear you arguing is that we don't follow God's Law anymore.

As a Christian, I abide in Christ's teachings. He taught from the Law frequently, quoting Leviticus ("You have heard it said, thou shalt not.."). But if you are somehow smarter than Jesus....

My counter argument consists of this, there is right and wrong. That Jesus is the Lord. That His teachings are true. Therefore the Law is still valid, just as the scriptures say.

Any perverted argument which seeks to abolish the Law is anti-Christian to me. You already tried denying the law and then skipped the other thread. Refer to where we left off in "It's my turn on the gay issue".
 
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Full_Moon

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Jesus spoke of the Law

MT 5: [bible]"18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven."[/bible]

Now some will gripe, saying how difficult it would be to uphold ever single Law. Which is why at the Jerusalem council it was decided:

[bible]Acts 15 "19"It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. 20Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood. 21For Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath.""[/bible]

To deny the validity of levitical law is to deny the validity of Christ's teachings and those of the early church fathers.
 
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BigBadWlf

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Do you personally adhere to all the laws of Leviticus?

Remember according to Leviticus shaving is a sin
Cutting your hair is a sin
Wearing clothing made of two different fabrics is a sin
Eating shellfish is a sin
Playing football (pigskin remember) is a sin
Wearing glasses (at least in church) is a sin

Leviticus also says that owning a slave and killing your own child are perfectly OK things.
 
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Full_Moon

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As a gentile I focus on what was decreed at the Jerusalem council. The more I learn the law, the more sin I am aware of. Christ is the one who redeems me from sin, not my own efforts at adhering to the law.

I find it disgusting how people quote/ misquote parts of the law they understand nothing about to try and invalidate the law entirely.

Yet I have no time to talk with every denier of the law about every single law that is written. Learn the ten commandments and abide by their teachings. Consider the importance of what the Jerusalem council decreed. This is my advice. Perhaps then one day you will understand what else is written in the law.

More than anything, learn from Christ.

I will not waste my time teaching you about the vanity of shaving your beard. Nor will I talk to you about the health effects of non-kosher eating. Nor will I try to explain things I do not myself understand. When one is perverting their inward parts with sexual immorality, that is what one should seek to learn about. This we can all understand, this is what has been stressed!

ABSTAIN FROM SEXUAL IMMORALITY! So it is written, so let it be.
 
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Full_Moon

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Let me ask you something. Same question goes out to all others.

Do you deny the teachings of Christ regarding the law?
 
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