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persecution is coming???

lmnop9876

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i don't know about other countries, but i think Australia's going to have persecution, although perhaps not open or official, of non-compromising churches within the next 10 years, if not sooner. this is why:
1. The new anti-terrorism laws. these allow for pre-emptive house arrest of people suspected of planning terrorist attacks or inciting to terrorism.
2. Registers of religious ministers and organisations: already clerics listed as 'dangerous' have to be registered, soon it will be all religious organisations and ministers. organisations that don't register will be looked at suspiciously, and monitored by the government. as it is, churches have to register with the government if they want to receive their 10% tax rebate.
3. anti-vilification laws. these allow for prosecution of people making statements against homosexuality, other religions, &c. &c. these laws are already in place
4. laws against incitement to hatred. this can be on the basis of religion, sexual orientation, &c. &c. these laws are already in place in many states, and already a Pentecostal group has been prosecuted for 'inciting hatred' against Muslims, and had to give an official public apology.
5. laws allowing Sunday trading. in place in almost all states, these laws discriminate against those who won't work on Sunday (ask me, i just can't get a job as i won't work on Sunday).
6. New industrial relations laws: these will make it easier to fire people who won't work Sundays, or who are creating a disturbance in the workplace. this could eventually be used against Christians witnessing in the workplace.
7. Government encouraging inter-faith dialogue. the whole idea is to create wishy-washy religions that brush over all their differences and work together for peace, love, and harmony among all people.

these are some of the reasons why it will be harder to be a Christian in Australia within the next 10 years. if churches won't compromise, they'll face trouble.
 

erin74

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In some ways I kinda think - bring it on. At least then our voice might be heard. At the moment it is too often drowned out by the 'lets all hold hands and go to heaven together' universalist crowd.

We shouldn't cower from persecution - i'm not saying invite it though - that'd be dumb.
 
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lmnop9876

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perhaps hardship for the Church and Christians will help to sort out who's genuine and who's not? most of the nominal believers will drop out of Bible-believing Churches, and either leave Christianity altogether, or join some morally compromising, ecumenically minded, government-controlled "Church." it will also show us who's the true Church and who's not. we can only pray that God will send revival and genuine persecution doesn't become a reality.
 
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edie19

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I can't say for Australia - not familiar enough with the church in your country. I do believe Christianity as practiced in the "developed" countries will soon be a thing of the past. If truly hard times come - whether it be financial hardship or government imposed hardships - the "feel good" "happy clappy" "seeker-sensitive" churches will fall by the wayside. Too many of them aren't giving their congregation the "meat" needed to manage through hard times.

If we faced what the churches in China, Indonesia, and the Sudan face on a daily basis, western Christianity would be a very different thing. One of the reasons I read Voice of the Martyrs is to remind myself what Christianity truly entails (and it isn't prosperity/health & wealth preaching).
 
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lmnop9876

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i think here it will be the happy-clappy seeker-sensitive churches that will flourish, all those that are willing to engage in 'inter-faith dialogue,' be kept track of by the government, teach moral compromise, &c. &c. they will flourish as pawns in the hand of the government.
it's the churches that teach against things like homosexuality, condemn compromise to other religions, &c. that will have problems.
 
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McWilliams

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Great thoughts! Reminds me of verses, 2 Tim 3:12, Yes, and all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution! v13 But evil men and imposters will grow worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived. v14, But you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them.

Bottom line is who and for what purpose is one ready to die? What a test of who we really are, right? We must "Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?---unless indeed you are disqualified. But I trust that you will know that we are not disqualified. ll Cor.13:5,6

Behold, I am coming quickly! Hold fast what you have, that no one may take your crown. He who overcomes, I will make a pillar in the temple of MY God. Rev 3:11,12

I am aware of much present day persecution in other countries, pastors being tried and jailed for preaching God's Word! Hard to imagine and yet even in our country a pastor was reportedly taken to jail for preaching scriptural truths regarding homosexuality! Soon even here, our pastors may have to account to government authorities for all they choose to preach to their congregations!

Much to ponder, much to pray over, much cause to draw nearer to our sweet Lord in gratitude for His love and salvation for HIs own!

Soli deo gloria!
 
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lmnop9876

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we had some pastors who were prosecuted for 'inciting hatred against Muslims' (not in my Church though), they didn't go to jail, but did have to give a public apology and retraction of what they said.
 
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JM

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Just wondering, during the Reformation the Reformed Churches persecuted Anabaptists and Mennonites, etc. how does the Reformed Church feel today about the Anabaptists, Mennonites, or any other Christian group seen as heretical by Reformed standards...would you still persecute them for heresy?

(This isn't a troll post and I'm not trying to pick a fight, just wanted to know how ya'll felt.)
 
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StAnselm

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Street Preacher said:
(This isn't a troll post and I'm not trying to pick a fight, just wanted to know how ya'll felt.)

MOD HAT ON

Yeah, that's OK - I'm going to allow it. I realise you're not trolling.

After all this is an important question in regards to the reformed doctrine of the magistrate. That is, should heresy be a crime? So feel free to discuss it.

MOD HAT OFF
 
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CoffeeSwirls

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Here is a post from www.reallivepreacher.com.

Martin Luther, Diet Coke, And Canned Soup

Jung felt that daydreams, like night dreams, contain great personal significance for us. Your subconscious mind speaks to you both at night and during the day. The exact nature of the subconscious and the meaning of these dreams remain a mystery. But that’s where the fun comes in.

I have a recurring daydream that comes to me quite often. I do not understand the significance of it, and if you think you do, I would prefer you keep your thoughts to yourself. I don’t really want to know.

This daydream comes mostly when I should be working on a sermon or when I’m in an elevator. In the dream I am showing the 16th century reformer, Martin Luther, the modern world. How he arrived in our century is not a part of my daydream. Nor is there any explanation for why he speaks modern English.

Martin Luther is absolutely astounded by Diet Coke, elevators, and canned soup. And he says that our world smells funny.

I wince as I look at his monk’s robe, which certainly has not been washed in this or perhaps any other century. “You’re a bit ripe yourself, Marty. But what’s an odor or two among brothers in Christ, eh?”

“Well put,” he says with a polite nod.

He is startled by the fizzy pop when I open an ice cold Diet Coke. He lifts the can to his ancient lips, and his eyes open wide. Then he bends forward at the waist, spraying foamy suds all over the floor.

“What in the unholy name of Zwingli is this? It burns like a brew straight from the devil’s ****!”


“Oh, sorry. That’s called carbonation. They have this way of putting bubbles in some of the things we drink. I don’t know why we like it, but we do. I guess it’s a bit of a shock if you’re not used to it.”

He squints at the can, sounding out the letters. “'Diet of Coke.' I am not familiar with this particular council. Is there to be a disputation? Will I be asked to defend myself? You understand I’m a bit nervous after the incident at Worms.”

“Oh yeah, the Diet of Worms. That’s that council meeting where you were excommunicated, right?”

His eyes broke away from mine, and he looked around the room, then back at me. He nodded hesitantly.

“Don’t worry man, Diet Coke is a whole other thing.”

He looked relieved. Then I had a great idea.

“Hey man, SAY it!”

“Say what?”

“You knoooow” I say, dragging it out enticingly.

“Oh very well. I suppose you'll pester me until I do.”

Martin Luther clears his throat and lifts an arm, affecting the posture of an old fashioned orator.

“Here I stand. I can do no other!”

“YES!” I shout, pumping my fist like Tiger Woods does when he sinks a long putt. “Larry is not going to freakin believe this.”

“Larry?”

“Oh yeah, he’s a friend of mine, a pastor up in Dallas…uh, this city north of here.”

“He’s not a Calvinist, is he? Or an Anabaptist? If he is, by God I shall lay my hands on a stout quarterstaff and beat his head until the mule ***** that fills it pours out of his ears.”

“Whoa Marty, calm down. Take it easy. He’s a Baptist, and that’s a group that didn’t get started until you were pretty much already dead. And Baptists…well, you don’t wanna know. Anyway, we don’t really do head pounding as such anymore. Things have calmed down a lot since your time.”

To get his mind off quarterstaffs and heresy, I take him on his first elevator ride. He is beside himself with glee and pushes all the buttons. Every time the door opens he thinks we are in a different place and laughs like a madman. A woman in a business suit enters on the 8th floor, frowns when she sees that all the buttons have been pushed, then pushes the lobby button. She glances at Martin Luther, who is trying hard to suppress his giggles, and pushes the lobby button two more times. Then she puts a handkerchief to her nose and gets off on the 7th floor.

For lunch I pull out two cans of Campbell’s Beef and Vegetable soup. I toss one to him, enjoying his puzzled look.

“It’s soup, Martin. Watch.”

I put a can opener along the top and squeeze the handle until it locks. Then I twist it and the can rotates until the top pops off. Martin Luther leans over and watches everything. I pour the soup into a couple of bowls and pop them into a microwave. He puts his forefinger against the glass and fiddles with the buttons a bit while the soup is heating. He is startled by the “ding,” and then we have hot soup together.

“It’s a bit salty,” says he, “but extraordinary, considering it came from those strange cylinders. What did you call them again.”

“Cans.”

“And you may simply open one of these CANS whenever you’re hungry?”

“Yep.”

“Remarkable.”

After the soup we both get quiet and things are a little uncomfortable. Martin Luther picks at his robe, while I make two or three attempts at small talk. After the way he laughed on the elevator, I’m a little worried about showing him anything else.

“So…how much longer will you be here?”

“Not much longer. Just a few more minutes and I have to go back.”

“Oh,” I say, sadly. “Okay, how about this? We each get to ask the other two questions about life in his time. I go first.”

Martin Luther nods in agreement.

This is the opportunity of a lifetime, and I don’t want to blow it. But suddenly I can’t think of anything to say. And time is running out. I open my mouth and say the first thing that comes to mind.

“What was the longest time you ever went without brushing your teeth?”

“Brushing my teeth? What does that mean?”

“Never mind, that pretty much tells me more than I need to know. Okay, how about this: Why were people in your time so uptight about theology? You killed each other, for God’s sake. I mean literally, FOR THE SAKE OF GOD, you tortured and killed each other. Why?”

Martin Luther answers quickly and with a straight face. “That’s easy. We really believed.”

“Whaddya mean? In God? WE believe in God.”

He smiles. “No you don’t. Not really. You have so many options. There are so many different things that people in your time can believe. Your belief is a whispy, smoky, light-weighted sort of thing. I can see right through it. People in your world really don’t know WHAT they believe. For us, God is as real as rocks and wind and rain and summertime. And because we believe, we are passionate. Too passionate at times, I will admit. I see things much clearer now.”

“How do you know that much about us? All you’ve seen are Diet Cokes, elevators, and canned soup. I mean, we have a whole lot more than that.”

Martin Luther smiles. “I’ve seen enough. And now it’s my turn. I have only one question for you.”

“Shoot,” I say.

He looks puzzled.

“Oh, uh, go ahead and ask.”

“Our lives are filled with much hardship. Winters are hard; Summers too. Only wealthy people may hear music, and most people cannot read. Just securing food and water takes hours out of our days. In my entire lifetime, I only managed to write a set of commentaries and an assortment of other works and treatises. With your many labor saving devices, your elevators and your canned soup, I imagine that people can accomplish so much more with their lives. I imagine your days are filled with prayer and creation and loveliness. It is a marvelous time in which you live, is it not? Are people fully educated and busily engaged with writing and art and music and philosophy and theology?”

I can’t think of a way to answer him, and Martin Luther is fading away. I have to speak quickly.

“No, most of us produce very little. We tend to consume a lot, though. We spend most of our time consuming and using things. And we work an awful lot so that we can pay for all the things we want to consume. A lot of us consume more than we can pay for, so we buy on credit. And then of course, we have work doubly hard to pay our creditors. That’s just the way it is.”

Martin Luther looks puzzled, and just before he fades away he says, “I don’t understand what you mean.”

He’s gone before I can reply, but I speak anyway.

“Yeah, we don’t really understand it either, Martin.”


 
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JM

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So, are the modern Reformers 'whispy, smoky, light-weighted?' Do Reformed Christians lack 'passion' and if that passion is restored, can we logically see persecutions in the future?
 
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JimfromOhio

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Are any of us currently facing trials as a "warmup" before persecution comes? Easy life means weak faith and those who faced a hard life means will produce strong faith. We all need spiritual training. Romans 8:28 is not limited to "all suffering," "all trouble," "all good things," or "all righteousness." No matter what happens to us, it works out for God's purpose. Reading the Scriptures, current circumstances leads to our future that Glorifies God. Bad things are never good and God never wants bad things to happen, but the Bible clearly repeated reminding me that God uses trials to work for our good for His Glory. Sometimes God allows us to suffer so He can refine us. Suffering purifies us like fire refines gold (1 Pet. 1:7). God will ultimately work out for my good and for His Glory. The Bible and the Holy Spirit clearly taught me that God didn't merely promise me that temporal good will come out of difficult situations but did promised that whatever I do during my trials that God will be with me and I will Glorify God.
 
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CoffeeSwirls

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Thanks. The gist that I see is how Martin "said" that the reason they fought over theology was because it was real enough to fight about. They were more concerned with the spiritual matters they discussed than their legacies or the cultural mandate today that says we must not judge or offend anyone. If truth is truth, it is worth defending for the sake of our opponent.
 
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edie19

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can't give you rep points again yet - but AMEN.
 
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